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Old 07-26-2016, 05:56 PM   #1
Joey913
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In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

In my six years of playing mostly 1/2 or 1/3 for probably around 2,000 hours of live play, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK, and to be honest, the majority of my 3-bets are QQ+ and AK since my opponents often have tight opening ranges.

I frequently see comments here about folks 3-betting light w/ Axs or Kxs and wonder if this is more needed at 2/5 or if it's a leak in my game. I feel that through raising pre-flop, c-betting, and playing more aggressively post-flop than my competitors, I cultivate an aggressive enough image to where I get enough calls on my value hands, but am wondering if I need to insert light 3-bets into my game.

Perhaps I am biased in what I'm remembering, but it feels like very few raisers are folding (at least pre-flop) to my 3-bets, so 3-bet bluffing just seems like an expensive proposition unless they are folding frequently post-flop.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:02 PM   #2
kansaisupra
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

I agree here the 3 betting light in most 1/2 1/3 games is not necessary. I would say that when a 3! occurs, the opener rarely if ever folds to a 3!. They will call and do something stupid like check dark.

Are there smart players who fold to 3! yes. But the majority of players at 1/2 1/3 are playing their own cards and want to see flops.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:28 PM   #3
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

I often 3bet light in 1/2 games, and find it quite EV+.

Typically it'll be aimed at a player that looks to be stealing, can fold and I'll have position. For instance in my game you'll often see 4 - 5 limpers and then a big CO raise. If it's a player that's capable of making that play - I'll often 3 bet a lot of hands. Id say I get folds 50% and can take it on the cbet another the majority of the time. Also I have players that have betsize raise tells that are easy to 3 bet.

When I say often, I should qualify... these spots only come up once in 50 hands or so.

Last edited by jake; 07-26-2016 at 06:29 PM. Reason: edit
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:55 PM   #4
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

If people are calling 3bets too often, expand your 3bet value range.

If people are folding too often, expand your 3bet bluff range.

If you never 3bet with less than TT+/AK, you are almost certainly leaving value on the table one way or the other.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:08 PM   #5
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

I seldom make a 3bet that is not a value bet, in the last 200 hours I've done it twice. Both times a) I had a rock image that others had remarked upon and b) I was isolating a single player from late position who I had identified as being an observant regular low stakes player with a fold button. In other words, the stars aligned to make it worthwhile.

My value 3! range can be wider (and narrower) than TT+/AK though, it depends on the people involved.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:15 PM   #6
BackDoorFlush
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

Sounds pretty bad.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:08 PM   #7
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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I seldom make a 3bet that is not a value bet, in the last 200 hours I've done it twice. Both times a) I had a rock image that others had remarked upon and b) I was isolating a single player from late position who I had identified as being an observant regular low stakes player with a fold button. In other words, the stars aligned to make it worthwhile.

My value 3! range can be wider (and narrower) than TT+/AK though, it depends on the people involved.
Basically this. Don't 3b because you want to 3b more. 3b to accomplish a specific exploit of one or more V's mistakes -- raising too wide, folding too much post flop, playing face-up post, whatever.

Look for the mistakes your opponents make; exploit them. Sometimes that exploit will involve a light 3b.
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Old 07-27-2016, 01:33 AM   #8
CallMeVernon
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
In my six years of playing mostly 1/2 or 1/3 for probably around 2,000 hours of live play, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK, and to be honest, the majority of my 3-bets are QQ+ and AK since my opponents often have tight opening ranges.

I frequently see comments here about folks 3-betting light w/ Axs or Kxs and wonder if this is more needed at 2/5 or if it's a leak in my game. I feel that through raising pre-flop, c-betting, and playing more aggressively post-flop than my competitors, I cultivate an aggressive enough image to where I get enough calls on my value hands, but am wondering if I need to insert light 3-bets into my game.

Perhaps I am biased in what I'm remembering, but it feels like very few raisers are folding (at least pre-flop) to my 3-bets, so 3-bet bluffing just seems like an expensive proposition unless they are folding frequently post-flop.
As someone who has played a lot of both 1/2 and 2/5 in my life, I can tell you that this is not level-dependent. I use light 3-betting at both levels (though perhaps a bit differently).

Let me try to address something else in your post, though, and if your answer is what I think it is then I'll come back to your original question afterwards. Imagine that someone has raised in front of you and you have JJ. When you 3-bet with that, what kind of scenario are you hoping develops postflop if your opponent calls you?
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Old 07-27-2016, 02:57 AM   #9
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

Light 3bets can be very profitable when we are sitting at tables where a) opponents are opening light b) we are in position c) we have a tight image d) the open is for relatively small sizes i.e 10 bucks in a 1-3 game and e) stacks are deep.

Ex effective stacks at table 500+.

1 limper, HJ who raises 1-2 hands an orbit makes it $10, hero sitting on 500 3bets to $40 with Q6ss ( this hand is bad enough that we should normally fold but are taking a trash hand and raising with it. If we had a hand like 77 or Q10ss we would want to call and play a high SPR pot in position). Limper folds. HJ will fold a ton of broadway cards here, will probably only call with pocket pairs and will likely 4bet with KK+. Even if HJ calls the $40, he is likely check folding when he misses his set and we can take down the pot a lot with a $50 cbet.

This example is a way to print money basically due to our perceived range being so much stronger than V's.
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Old 07-27-2016, 09:40 AM   #10
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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I often 3bet light in 1/2 games, and find it quite EV+.

Typically it'll be aimed at a player that looks to be stealing, can fold and I'll have position. For instance in my game you'll often see 4 - 5 limpers and then a big CO raise. If it's a player that's capable of making that play - I'll often 3 bet a lot of hands. Id say I get folds 50% and can take it on the cbet another the majority of the time. Also I have players that have betsize raise tells that are easy to 3 bet.

When I say often, I should qualify... these spots only come up once in 50 hands or so.
I like that you're 3betting people in position. However at the 1/2 table is someone raises to 30 then you three bet them to 60-80. If they shove what is your calling range? Pocket pairs? or is it a combo of your current stack size and cards?
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:13 AM   #11
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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I like that you're 3betting people in position. However at the 1/2 table is someone raises to 30 then you three bet them to 60-80. If they shove what is your calling range? Pocket pairs? or is it a combo of your current stack size and cards?
I wouldn't recommend light 3-betting someone opening to 15x at a 1/2 game. I would also work on your 3b sizing - a min 3-bet isn't going to have much fold equity.
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:32 AM   #12
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

it's a lot tougher to light 3bet in 1/2 because once you do that, you are starting down the road of a bluff line and when the villain is going to be stack committed if they call a cbet, there is no sense in doing it.

also, don't just 3bet/bluff to 3bet/bluff. You need to have a complete plan for the entire hand, you are not just hoping and praying they fold to the 3bet pre.
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:49 AM   #13
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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I like that you're 3betting people in position. However at the 1/2 table is someone raises to 30 then you three bet them to 60-80. If they shove what is your calling range? Pocket pairs? or is it a combo of your current stack size and cards?
I don't see ppl 2 betting 15x very often. But if I did think someone was stealing after a bunch of limpers with a big bet - I would usually 2.5x their bet. But I'd really really need to have seen this (steal) pattern before. If they shove I'm likely giving up without a premium.
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Old 07-27-2016, 10:58 AM   #14
Reubenr676
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In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

I usually don't see people 15x raising, but there's this crazy home game In Houston I've been playing at where every single preflop raise is 25+


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Old 07-28-2016, 01:11 AM   #15
Joey913
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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As someone who has played a lot of both 1/2 and 2/5 in my life, I can tell you that this is not level-dependent. I use light 3-betting at both levels (though perhaps a bit differently).

Let me try to address something else in your post, though, and if your answer is what I think it is then I'll come back to your original question afterwards. Imagine that someone has raised in front of you and you have JJ. When you 3-bet with that, what kind of scenario are you hoping develops postflop if your opponent calls you?
Obviously this is going to be very villain and position dependent but... if it's a looser /splashier player, then I'm hoping for a flop w/o an over card to a Jack if SPR is low enough looking to get it in. So many variations though based on the various villain/position/SPRs scenarios.
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:31 AM   #16
CallMeVernon
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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Obviously this is going to be very villain and position dependent but... if it's a looser /splashier player, then I'm hoping for a flop w/o an over card to a Jack if SPR is low enough looking to get it in. So many variations though based on the various villain/position/SPRs scenarios.
And when you get such a flop, do you often get it in against worse hands, or do people tend to fold when you bet those kinds of flops?

When an overcard comes, do you often get to check down one or two streets and sometimes win a showdown, or do you usually end up folding to bets?
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:44 AM   #17
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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Originally Posted by jake View Post
I often 3bet light in 1/2 games, and find it quite EV+.

Typically it'll be aimed at a player that looks to be stealing, can fold and I'll have position. For instance in my game you'll often see 4 - 5 limpers and then a big CO raise. If it's a player that's capable of making that play - I'll often 3 bet a lot of hands. Id say I get folds 50% and can take it on the cbet another the majority of the time. Also I have players that have betsize raise tells that are easy to 3 bet.

When I say often, I should qualify... these spots only come up once in 50 hands or so.
you really can't 3! light against the tiltmonkeys that are just going to call you anyway. it is most effective against TAG's who are just trying to steal the limps of OMC's. If the game is tight and I have a clean image, I might do this once every 30 hands. or about once an hour.
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Old 07-28-2016, 02:05 AM   #18
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

It depends a lot of what you're 3bet sizing is. If you standarly raise to 4x the open, you can have more bluffs, you just have to be open to the idea of raising big with AA and everyone folds
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Old 07-28-2016, 02:39 AM   #19
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

It's something you should incorporate in your game; if not, you could still be profitable, but you're missing out on some "value".

You can't just assume all 1/2 or 1/3 players play the same. Everyone is different. You have to pick your spots well. Don't just do it based on singular factors like:
- The opener is loose
- You're IP
- The hand you have can't profitably call but you don't wanna fold
- You think you can fold out the initial raiser
- Your image is tight

You have to combine these factors and do it when the situation presents itself. You might make mistakes at first. THAT'S OK as long as you learn from it. Just keep trying and ask yourself important questions when it goes wrong. When it's successful, ask yourself why it you think it worked.

As you slowly incorporate light 3betting into your game, you'll get better at it and eventually instinctively know what spots are EV+, when to C-bet, etc. It takes practice, but it's ultimately making you tougher to play against.

Hope this helps, GL!
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Old 07-28-2016, 03:36 AM   #20
bodybuilder32
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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It's something you should incorporate in your game; if not, you could still be profitable, but you're missing out on some "value".

You can't just assume all 1/2 or 1/3 players play the same. Everyone is different. You have to pick your spots well. Don't just do it based on singular factors like:
- The opener is loose
- You're IP
- The hand you have can't profitably call but you don't wanna fold
- You think you can fold out the initial raiser
- Your image is tight

You have to combine these factors and do it when the situation presents itself. You might make mistakes at first. THAT'S OK as long as you learn from it. Just keep trying and ask yourself important questions when it goes wrong. When it's successful, ask yourself why it you think it worked.

As you slowly incorporate light 3betting into your game, you'll get better at it and eventually instinctively know what spots are EV+, when to C-bet, etc. It takes practice, but it's ultimately making you tougher to play against.

Hope this helps, GL!
Those singular factors in conjuction with one another make for a pretty good spot to 3bet.
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Old 07-28-2016, 12:24 PM   #21
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

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Those singular factors in conjuction with one another make for a pretty good spot to 3bet.
That's what I was trying to say. Apologies if I didn't communicate that effectively.
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Old 07-28-2016, 01:33 PM   #22
mikko
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

Think your asking wrong question OP. Do you need to 3 bet light?

No, 3 betting for value is just fine.

Questions you should ask yourself, and work out answers yourself.

When should I be expanding my 3 bet value range?

What situations may a light 3 bet be profitable?

Is my table image conducive for profitable 3 bet?

Vs what opponents may we 3 bet?

What table dynamics will 3 betting light be profitable?
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Old 07-29-2016, 12:53 PM   #23
SunChips
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

I actually do think it is stake dependent.

At 1/2 I found that 3betting for value with something like TT+ AQs+ and in multiway pots with dead money as a squeeze with a wide range works well.

At 2/5 I found that using 1/2 strategy + 3betting wide in position when deep with a wider range to isolate weak players and play post flop with initiative works well.

At 5/T I found that 3betting polarized in position and OOP works well, I prefer to play a wider calling range and smaller 3betting range of hands that flop well and have higher implied odds.

Obv everything dependent on stack sizes and table types... If you are playing 100bb deep and facing 4x+ opens with no callers, i'd say pretty much only 3b value and dead money squeezes. At 150bb+ at 4x opens the game opens up.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:04 PM   #24
Richard Parker
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

What you are trying to say is that it's player (target) dependent.

Obviously you don't 3-bet with 72o against someone who has not folded a single hand prior to SD.

Saying that you have never 3bet light before it's like saying you have never bluffed before, both are -EV for obvious reasons.
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Old 07-29-2016, 01:48 PM   #25
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Re: In 6 years, I've never 3-bet w/ less than TT+ and AK

Thats why youve been stuck at the lowest level for 6 years. Ppl fold way too much at these stakes. They will snap fold qq to a 4 bet so why wouldnt you 3 (and 4 bet) light?
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