Hypothetical question for all of you: do you ever 5bet bluff in 1/2(3) limits?

I guess phrased differently, do you think you ever run into a type of player who is capable of making a 4bet with a weakish range (contextually at least), that might fold to a 5bet?

lol

yeah one time, of course I got snapped off by QQ.

People who exploitively 4b light either move up quickly or lose all their money quickly, so that they are so rare you shouldn't worry about seeing them at 1/2. Occasionally there are whales who 4b light frequently and have too much money to lose it all at 1/2, and all 5bs against them should be for value (including thin value with hands like AJ).

3bets are pretty rare at LLSNL, so you very rarely see 4bets in most games. That makes it hard to get a read on someone's 4betting range unless it's a reg v reg situation. Your default read should be that all 4bets are for value and are unbluffable. Once you have a specific read on a person's 4bet range and how they play it, you should adjust accordingly and bluff if it's the right play.

I don't think this is a great question to waste a lot of time thinking about. It doesn't really matter if other people regularly see 5bet bluff spots. It's pretty obviously a play that will lose money against the average player, so you can only make a bluff once you have a read. And once you have a read that a 5bet bluff is good against a particular player, who cares what other people are doing in other spots? It's irrelevant.

A lot of people have a metaleak of trying to avoid spots where they will look foolish. Like people will be reluctant to make a bluff on the river because they don't want to be forced to show down a weak hand when they're called, because it's embarrassing. It's as if certain plays are bad manners and are just Not Done by respectable people. This post seems to be an attempt to feel out whether most LLSNL players think 5bet bluffing is bad manners.

What's a 5 bet?

Gyouplayin>100bbBIgame?G

The only 4-bet light I have ever seen (Only 300 hrs in) was from a super loose (Don't know what other qualifier to put in there). I 5-bet him and he still called with A-10, and spiked that F'ing ace on me. But that is the only time I didn't think a 4-bet meant AA or KK.

I also saw a 5 bet called by QQ in a 500BB deep 1/3 game. But he still ran into KK.

To 5! Bluff you need:
1. An opponent with a 4!/fold range which means they are 4! Ak- and QQ- and will fold it or air and...
2. Stack depths that allow the 5th bet to carry substantial FE.

Both of these are somewhat rare in a 1/2 game and the combination that much more so. (I say this having 4!/called with AK recently in a 1/3 game) Given the scarcity of this situation it should be viewed as an extraordinary improbability IMO (more because of number 1).

In most situations I can envision where we were deep enough for this to be viable and we suspect v to be wide i would more likely be seeking to take a flop deep and play post flop including plans to possibly bluff rather than declare a preflop war. Given the current state of 1/2 games I'd think that even 4! Bluffing is usually going to be unprofitable.

Because the vast majority of live players are not actively planning counter strategies (or watching card runners videos teaching them to 3! Lite) they tend to adjust to wide opens by simply calling more and even when they do open their 3! Range it's still rather strong mostly so light 4! As a strategy doesn't really become very viable or prevalent... Without an opponent having at least some bluffs in his 4! Range you're left targeting a narrow to non-existent part of his 4! Range that will fold (QQ/AKish).

Lastly, live we don't have the benefit of stats on our villains. Given that 3!, 4! Are rare we can't know with any certainty what frequency we can expect folds so it's rarely going to be anything but a guess whether a 5! Bluff will be profitable.

No.

Sure, anything is possible. At low stakes, people don't balance their bluffs. If they are 4 betting light, they are 4betting light all the time and will be picked off fairly soon.

I would guess that you could 5bet bluff and win the pot pre flop about once every 500 hours.

Solid info bro, tell it again.

Essentially what I was looking for. I figured this scenario would be very rare, if ever. But the A10 example that doped mention is the unlikely scenario that I was hypothesizing about.

And for those curious (or who post "LOLZ NO ******" type answers) this question arose as I am logging time contemplating various ranges for different types of villains and weird scenarios where something like this might come up. Again, I figured this would be unlikely, but was curious if anyone had seen it, and if so what type of player they were and what types of hands they did it with (IE, A10 with a super loose player).

I guess worded differently, I could also have asked "have you ever run into a multi level thinking player at 1/2 who was capable of running a 5bet bluff, and if so, can you describe the scenario".

Appreciate the input gents.

the most likely scenario would be button vs SB with two thinking 1/2 players, probably 300bb deep at least

^rt

lol

I don't think there are many opportunities in 1/2 or 1/3 to 5bet bluff. You need to know someone who opens wide and gets 3bet has a wide 4bet/fold range in the right dynamic. Stacks need to be deep (we are never 5betting/folding more than 20 to 25% of our stack) and we need to know someone is playing back at you. In general, if I 5bet someone, I am getting it in if I get raised.

When you get up to the higher levels there will be more opportunities, although they are generally extremely rare that I will 5bet/fold someone.

What's so funny? It's a valid question, although it may be above your level of thinking.

Thanks for your response.

Seems like that tends to be the general consensus, at least as far as 1/2 (particularly if its not a deep/loose game) is concerned.

I pretty rarely four bet anymore with any part of my range, because when I four bet KK I was only getting called by AA and when I four bet AA I was getting close to 100% folds, including from QQ. Based upon that experience, there are some spots where a four bet bluff makes a lot of sense I think. However by the time someone else has put in a four bet, you are gonna need incredible luck for them to be willing to fold it.

almost no one 3 bet bluffs and absolutely no one 4 bet bluffs at 1/2 or 1/3... so i can promise that if you 5 bet bluff you are getting snapped off.