Hey guys Do you think I made a donkey play here? Anything I could have done differently?

5 handed:

Pre flop: Hero($1250) opens AhTh UTG $15, CO($300) and Button($800) both call.

Button is a solid player and the only person that I haven't been crushing this night (our table was the same 5 people for 7 hours). He is relatively tricky and have seen him bluff big on the river a couple times as well as flat KK vs my 3/4 bets. We got into a couple 4-bet pots together and we were basically even against each other. Not worried about cut off at all as he's reloaded 4 times and plays fishy.

Flop ($45): Kh9h3h
Hero checks, CO checks, button bets $30. I call, CO folds

Turn ($105): 4c
hero checks, Button bets $80. I raise to $250, Button calls.
At this point I'm thinking he has a queen high flush or 99,33

River ($605): 4s
Hero all-in for $500 effective, Button snap calls. I say "full house good" and he tables 33 and I muck.

Hero -$800

This was my 3rd 500bb pot at 1/3 and also the 3rd time I've lost to a rivered full house while being ahead on the previous 2 streets and it's really making me think I'm not meant to win big pots. I knew the board was gonna pair before it happened, I'm tired of losing huge pots with 70%+ equity going to the river. Deep stack poker really is not good to me

Anyways what do you guys think would be the appropriate play in this spot? After thinking about it I probably should have bet $200 or just checked. But this puts me in such a bad spot if he jams. I guess If he was as deep as me I probably could have gotten away from this and just bet-folded the river but I digress.

Bet flop

Valid point. Although, at the time I didn't think I'd get action on a king high monotone board, that's why I elected to check.

As played, prefer xr on flop (better for our range). But river jam is okish.

Could nitpick other things but shrug - not huge - slightly small turn xr sizing for these stakes.

The main leaks which are worse than the hand results.

1. I'm guessing that you don't have a poker bank roll of $25,000 as a rec player and $50,000 as a pro. Playing under rolled causes you to start playing non-optimally since you are scared money. Your post indicates you are about to change your strategy. Don't do it. You should never have more than 10% of your bank roll on the table. Certainly don't buy in that much. If you earn it, leave the table until you can rebuy back in for less.

2. As bad as this seems, you will run worse in your life if you keep playing poker. The cards don't care about you. If you start thinking you're snake bit, you'll start losing more.

As for the hand, you're allowed to check the nuts on the flop. Unless someone improves, you're only going to get one street of play from a good player. If you really had the villain on a Q-high flush and sets, betting the river is bad. His range is wider making a bet than calling on the river because he might do some bluffs.

I don't get where these assumptions are coming from? I did not buy into a 1-3 games for $1250. I bought in for $300 and was at this game for 10 hours+. I had slowly built my stack to this level. Also this was the only table running at the time (it was 6am)

What would a good xr sizing be here for the turn? I just went with a simple 3x sizing. And what would a 4x-5x raise here accomplish? We probably keep a Q high flush in but we probably fold out lower flushes, sets could be getting good implied odds assuming I pay them off when the board pairs so I guess we could have gone with something like $350

I suppose our main goal with a check raise here is to get value from marginal flushes and put sets in a bad spot. Sets have 20% equity on turn and he is getting 28% pot odds. Maybe I should have set up an SPR closer to .5 on the river to get a Q high flush to call given a clean run out and then make a small downbet if the board pairs and give ourselves a chance to get away if he jams.

And honestly I'd rather you nit pick my play. That's how I can learn the most from this spot so feel free.

This is a 266bb cooler not 550bb.

Also sounds like you are gun-shy with deep stacks and maybe you should rack when you get deep for a while.

heh well gotta mix in some click bait every once in a while.

on a serious note can you explain why you think I'm gun shy and what I could have done better?

Play enough poker and you will get horrible run bad eventually. I've had more then 4 major suck outs in a single day when things were running bad.

Once the river pairs the board you should slow down. There are 2 interrelated things going on here.

First, as you get deeper you need stronger hands to move all in for value. A lot things play into this but the major one is just that your not pot committed. Look at this hand, your check/raise on the turn built a huge pot but your still not really close to pot committed. Every aggressive action you take requires a stronger hand then the last one because your opponent didn't fold. The more aggression that can be in a hand before pot commitment the stronger the hands required.

The other one here is that the board pairing on the river really takes the shine off your hand. Not only does that push several of villain's likely hands ahead but it reduces the value of villain's flushes also. Villain has to figure that if he doesn't have a boat it's likely you have a boat or better flush if your willing to move in.

as the initial raiser there is no range of hands you can check this flop but call a bet with. If you had AhJs you'd cbet to semi-bluff. Your line makes no sense. Not that he cares he has a set. Point is you risked letting him off the hook cheap the way you played it. Had you cbet he might raise in which you can 3bet jam and look bluffy like AhAc and see how big of a station he is. Or he just calls hoping for a miracle on the turn and then you jam and once again he's in a tough spot. I doubt he put you on a flopped flush, but the point is you kinda just let him get there.

When you start getting deep like this you want to bring the pain. You've already established an image by this point of being aggro, now step it up and keep constant pressure.

Gun shy is maybe not the right phrase but you said this:

it's really making me think I'm not meant to win big pots. I knew the board was gonna pair before it happened

So your mental game is not in a good spot. When you think like this, you are more likely to make stupid decisions. I'm not talking about this hand, it's a general comment. I'm not criticising BTW, every player knows this feeling, it's just part of the poker experience.

There is no easy solution except play more poker. A shorter term approach is to consider racking up and coming back with a single stack when you are over a certain amount.

Pre flop - Pretty standard

Flop - You should be c-betting this flop as UTG PFR, you have a strong range that contains a nice mix of value hands and semi-bluffs. Not sure how loose these guys are pre but it sounds like you can get value from a ton of hands the fish in the CO has, and the button can have 6 sets, maybe 35 top pair hands, 3 combos of K9 suited, probably 4 combos of suited connectors for smaller flushes and 15 combos of 1010-QQ if he's tricky pre like you said. You can and will probably get value from all or most of these from a decent player. You also risk this checking through and giving free cards to hands that can out draw you.

As played, the call is fine because most hands you could have gotten value from with a c-bet will now fold to the check raise on the flop, I think only 3 combos of two pair, smaller flushes and 6 combos of sets would continue.

Turn - V bets 80% of pot, we have the nut flush, so what can we realistically funnel his range down to here? Strictly sets and a queen high flush you say? Well keep in mind there is literally only one combo of a queen high flush left (QhJh) unless hes calling an UTG raise with Q8s on the button but you said hes good so I doubt that. But there is smaller suited connectors that flopped flushes that will continue here as well as sets and maybe even two pair (K9s) will go for one more street of value after our passive flop action.

So when we check raise turn we should remember we are targeting those holdings because that's all we can get value from anyways. We're out of position and more than half of the villains range that calls our check raise is drawing to a boat, the rest is a flopped flush.

Probably an unpopular opinion but because of SPR I would check raise small to like $180 which leaves us a little more than a pot sized bet left on the river that we will know exactly what to do with once the card falls. We can plan to jam a blank which looks bluffy after checking flop or bet fold a board pairing river.

River - What were you trying to get called by? I get it, its a weird spot because of stack size but did you think that smaller flushes were gonna call the jam on that river card? I mean they beat literally no hand you would take this line with. You kind of forced him to play correctly here. I think as played the thinnest of value bets would be ok to target smaller flushes and K9s, like $150, and then just fold to a jam. I wouldn't think he is going to turn a worse hand into a bluff so it would be a straight forward bet fold.

I think your mental game is probably off, especially how you mention that you knew the board was about to pair. Deep stacked poker gives you a bigger edge on worse players and gives you more ammo to make moves when necessary. It also can compound your mistakes and give better opponents a bigger edge on you. This should be something that your prepared for and you should be making adjustments as stacks get deeper.

Try thinking more in terms of ranges, and also pay closer attention to bet sizing and the SPR it will create on later streets.

Probably one of the best responses to a post I’ve seen in a long time. I agree 100% with this guy.

Your line is bad. You probably want to mostly bet with this hand on the flop from a theory POV. From an exploitative POV, who runs this line as a bluff? If you had like AhQ you’d just bet bet bet.


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I guess the main reason I did not bet the flop is I was worried I wouldn't get any action If I did. I felt like my hand was a bit too strong to lead out into 2 other players OOP. But if I put my entire range into this spot I would be leading almost all the hands I open here especially Ahx hands. Given the opponent on the button I'm pretty sure he would have raised me to protect his set from Ahx, Qhx type hands. Would I want to 3-bet that spot 100% of the time or just flat the raise and bomb a clean turn? And this was a relatively passive game so I would definitely put more Q high flushes in his range than just QJs.

With a raise to 180 we give him roughly exactly the odds he needs to draw to a boat. Is this advisable? instinctively I'd want to charge him more especially being as deep as we were and given his implied odds he has a mandatory call with that raise size.

Obviously the river I 100% agree with your analysis and I made a sperg play, I'm only called by boats and even Q high flushes probably find a fold with a paired board. Would you say a check/fold or a 25%PSB/fold be best?

Yeah you're right. Doesn't make sense not to bet the nuts in this spot as I'd be betting pretty much all my opening range besides offsuit SC and lower pocket pairs.

I think this is the last time I will trap with a vulnerable monster. Better to take down the $45 OTF than have the nuts outdrawn for $800

You should be betting infrequently 3 ways on a monotone board.

The one justification for checking is this: having the Th blocks the weaker flushes he can have dramatically (as Kh and 9h are also accounted for). So his range might be so weak, that we have to let him stab at it.

But even then, the correct line is check call flop, check call turn, check jam river.


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Yeah this was my reasoning in the moment. Leading a monotone board into two people looks too strong. But like you said theoretically I should lead out with a polarized range since either player can have Qh,Jh, top two pair and 6 combos of sets. Getting top or even mid pair to fold OTT with a bluff would be huge and if someone decides to protect their sets or two pair hands I can 3-bet and put them all in on the turn if they flat the 3!

from now on I think I'm never trapping anything besides top set on dry board or nut straights on rainbows. It's just not the play at low stakes and it has been very costly for me in the past.

+1, cbetting monotone flops MW too often is a pretty common leak. A hand like AK no h is a mandatory flop check, especially this deep. Our equity's not fantastic against continuing ranges, and we end up with a marginal hand in a big pot way too often.

If we're talking ranges, the better argument for cbetting nut flushes is that we have lots of Ah hands that are perfect semibluffs, so we want to be betting with some hands that can A) get fat value now, and B) be nutted on brick runouts. B is especially important playing deep; going to the river OOP in large pots with a range disadvantage a lot is not likely to end well.

If he raised your c bet with any part of his range we are in a dream spot, he's essentially telling you he has a set or smaller flush, both of which he would feel are vulnerable to any Ahx hand or KK which you also have 3 combos of. In that exact scenario you would have a clear cut call, check and evaluate his sizing on the turn when he fires again.

As far as the suggested the raise size, its the lesser of two evils imo because of how the hand played out and SPR. But remember, we are check raising the range of hands that he fired the turn again with which contains hands that are drawing dead against you as well (smaller flushes) I didn't plug the numbers in but if you look at that entire range's equity against your specific holding I think your fine. Especially now that your telling me he has more QhXh flushes in his range than I would normally think. Yes the sets and two pair hands will draw, but they dont have the implied odds they think because we can bet small for value and fold to a jam on board pairing rivers. The villain only has the implied odds you give him, and you shouldn't be willing to stack off here if the board pairs.

Remember, don't worry about monsters under the bed, lets set up an SPR on the turn so we can stack smaller flushes and non-believing sets when we jam clean rivers. If the board pairs we cross that bridge when we get to it, be aware of the possibility he can suck out and have a plan, but don't let that completely dictate your decisions. You should be more concerned with how to get value from all those worse hands he can have.

As for your last question, as played its definitely not a check, fold. You'd feel worse than you do now if he flashed a smaller flush at you after you mucked. I think betting 25% pot for value and folding to a jam is fine.

So when can we justify a c-bet on a monotone board? Right now I'd assume any Ahx, any flush, sets we'd probably want to keep our opponents range wide and keep the pot small and pretty much always fold when the 4th heart comes out. I feel like that is a good polarized range to c-bet with while maintaining some strong checks.

It's hard to win stacks when you flop the nuts. But more to the point, exactly what kind of hand do you want him to improve to so he gives you action? Board pairs and suddenly he raises your turn bet, how thrilled are now? Or a 4th heart comes and then he just shuts down. You block the straight draws so there's really nothing for him to catch up with. Maybe if you had AThh on a board like 568hhh where he can have all sorts of combo draws worth his while to get trapped with.

I see some people suggesting betting on monotone boards is a leak. I get what they're saying and agree when you're more shallow stacked, but I think it's great for meta when you get deep. You need to have an element of being out of line. If you know your opponent thinks you have leaks then you are more likely to get action from him when you make "fishy" plays. All the more reason to bet flops like this. Consider it a kind of hail mary cbet frequency. You want your opponent thinking "oh great here comes javi cbetting literally every flop regardless of texture as if he always has something, too bad I have a set now mother****er". You get the idea. People get really frustrated deepstacked because they feel like they cant ever get to showdown. Coupled with the fact that your average player thinks the right play is to nit it up the deeper he gets when he finally DOES give you action he's likely to be very strong and simply cant get away from it.

so much this.

and 166 of the 266 BB went in when you should reasonably expect that you might not have the best hand.

but if you are complaining about seven outed in a pot that small, you have not played long enough to see how bad variance can actually go.

Try getting two outed in a 3k pot against a maniac and then getting 3 outed two hands later in a 7k pot against the very same player.

after you make adjustments to your game that will allow for more variance, this beat will be nothing

Add me to the just go bet bet bet camp not that I think checking flop is a disaster.

River jam seems a little questionable. It’s hard for him to have big flushes. He has QJhh. Unless he’s flatting Q8hh or J8hh pre then that’s it, one combo of broadway flushes. So you need him to call all of his small flushes for jam to be profitable.

Given that we are unlikely to get bluffed here, I wonder if bet tiny/fold or x/fold to a jam is the best line. Like what bluffs do we ever expect him to show up with? Bluffing K9 or like KxQh here would be pretty next level and I wouldn’t expect it at a 1/3 game.