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500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout 500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout

03-06-2014 , 10:52 AM
i know this is a fold preflop. but i was on tilt. so i called.

$2/$5 with $10 straddle.

utg is a tag. sitting with 1k.
caller is a fish. sitting 700
hero is on tilt. sitting 500.

utg opens 35 and a fishy player in MP calls, Hero calls on btn with 76

Flop ($122): 654

utg checks, fishy player checks, Hero bets 75, utg calls, fishy player folds.

Turn ($272): 654 A

utg leads 110, hero?
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 11:02 AM
We need 22% equity to make this a call.

We're getting just about the right odds to see a river.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: 654A
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
Ax73.76% 438,4358,252
6726.24% 153,3138,252
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 11:06 AM
Calling pre is highly optimistic IMO though you do have the BTN.

As played flop is std, turn is villain dependent and is close. Do we really get any action on 3,6,7 or 8 river?
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 11:17 AM
i'm not so quick to give villain credit for Ax. it is tough for him to call Ax oop with fishy player behind him still. if the fish was after me and he closed the action then Ax i think is a significant part of his his range. but is he really taking a ch/call line with AK/AQ type hands oop with a fishy player yet to act behind him?
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 03:30 PM
Preflop call is standard on the button. Flop bet is good.

Given the description of the villan as TAG his range to open UTG is going to be tight, AK, AQ maybe AJ and 99+. I think we can rule out sets and straights from his possible holdings.

As DaYu pointed out above we have enough equity to make this a call.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 03:53 PM
****. sorry fellas. the turn lead was 135 into 272 fwiw.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 04:06 PM
i think calling pre and betting flop are both pretty standard. what to do on the turn is pretty villain/read dependent but i think a reasonable case could be made for any option.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 04:11 PM
Wp so far.

If we think villain can lay down a big ace then shoving here is good. I'm shoving here unless villain has history of being super sticky with tp
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque
Wp so far.

If we think villain can lay down a big ace then shoving here is good. I'm shoving here unless villain has history of being super sticky with tp
Per OP Hero is on tilt making UTG much more likely to call with top pair otherwise I would agree with you.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Face
i'm not so quick to give villain credit for Ax. it is tough for him to call Ax oop with fishy player behind him still. if the fish was after me and he closed the action then Ax i think is a significant part of his his range. but is he really taking a ch/call line with AK/AQ type hands oop with a fishy player yet to act behind him?
this, it seems VERY hard for villian to hit that ace.

this turn bet is SO strange.

it seems almost impossible for him to have anything good at all and there are a lot of monsters in your own range. shove and expect a quick fold
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-06-2014 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beta1607
Preflop call is standard on the button. Flop bet is good.

Given the description of the villan as TAG his range to open UTG is going to be tight, AK, AQ maybe AJ and 99+. I think we can rule out sets and straights from his possible holdings.

As DaYu pointed out above we have enough equity to make this a call.
I kinda want to just jam since his range is capped. Is that a bad idea if so why?
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 04:41 AM
i thought you were on tilt? so do what every serious tilter does, just jam. it´s a good play, too, imo.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 04:55 AM
Don't shove.

Villain check/calling flop oop and then leading river suggests he has something. Looks a lot like A4 or A5 or other hands he's not now folding. I'd call and expect it to be +EV.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 11:16 AM
I think there are some problems with this hand.

Pre

I don't particularly like this call essentially 50BB deep and 14x behind the preflop open. The value of this hand particularly vs. a taggy opener is to have some FE. Yeah we can smash (as we did) but against a range of JJ+ we are still a dog on this flop (granted add in AK, AQ and we become a favorite but he is not putting too much money in). So the shorten stacks mean less FE and the fact that Hero is on tilt means less FE. Therefore I think pre is marginal though not the end of the world with the fish in the hand and us having the BTN. if the open had been 40-45 OR we weren't on the BTN this would be a clear fold IMO.

Flop

This seems fine. I would have bet a bit more with the fish in the hand but NBD.

Turn

Weird line from Villain...1/2 pot. Calling is probably a nuetral EV play here so if he will bet or call any 3,6,7,8 river I guess its fine. I have a hard time believing a TAG will on that board but ok. Raising is terrible as he is never folding an A. Would villain rep the A with some sort of KQs or QJs hand?
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 11:42 AM
grunch: call

this is very tough spot. and a terrible turn card for us. i don't think i shove because of the normal "what's folding that i beat?". so it's a gut check and either know you're beat and fold now... or go into call-down mode to keep any lesser hands and bluffs in range. you still have outs to the straight. you're getting an OK price... not a great price. the toughest part of this hand is that even if you get the right price this is a big hit to your stack if you lose and you may not get much value if your straight comes in on the river.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 12:31 PM
i consider calling and shoving here.

i dont think villain will fold Ax to me here, not after calling with air oop, hitting his gin card, and then leading out. esp without much behind.

Hero calls 135.

River ($407): 654 A K

Villain bets 235, Hero??
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 01:10 PM
ouch. another tough card on river and villain keeps the pressure on. gut check time.. would he bluff? from what i can infer from the posts i fold and then feel bad about making the turn call.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 01:58 PM
I think there is an error in your HH, in the first post you said villain bet 110 on the turn and now saying you called 135?

Either way, clear fold IMO. Arguably the worst card in the deck for you. What could a TAG open UTG here that you beat? You also don't have enough behind to consider a bluff shove since it'd only be like 80 more to him.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:04 PM
Fold river, it's not really close.
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
Fold river, it's not really close.
Yeah this hand went from interesting on the flop, to mildly interesting on the turn, to trivial on the river.

In before OP hero'd and was right cuz villain had QJs
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote
03-07-2014 , 09:13 PM
and this is why you can't flat the turn. Your direct odds were bad, there are few implied odds in a call, and you often face this river shove.

jamming the turn would have folded out the likes of 77/88 turned into bluffs. our fold eq against Ax was never really an issue; like you realized, it's really hard for him to have an ace.

but it's even harder for him to show up with total air, so now you pretty much have to fold...
500NL: TP+oesd on bad runout Quote

      
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