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Old 12-08-2014, 05:04 PM   #1
position2getlucky
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.50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

Live .50/1 NLHE, full-handed

DESCRIPTION: Home game. All players regs.

VILLAIN: is about even after getting bad beats a few times in a row for stacks. He has been opening liberally from any position since getting some chips back to generate action. These latter points are what the doubt about this river decision centers on. Villain is an experienced (winning) player, yet has what I find to be a curious style. He mostly plays deep-stacked, with a LP style pf and post-flop, deferring to aggression and trapping quite a bit. My take on this particular facet of his style is that he will sacrifice value on early streets in hope of getting stacks in on later streets. I personally don't think he plays a winning style, but seeing as there's plenty of worse opp's, it seems to work for him. He is also rolled well, and is never scared money. He plays a wide range of hands and has a very high VPIP, but only shows aggression when coming in with he has solid value hands. Otherwise, he's limp/calling, check/calling quite a bit. He doesn't like to fold, is generally a non-believer, and I have taken him to value town quite often. He's very competitive and will come after a player and make moves on a player that tries to muscle him around. Especially after losing. Overall, he's tricky and is a skilled hand reader, but I've found that playing straight-up against him about 80-90% of the time works really well. My overall style is pretty ABC, but I will mix up enough to adjust/balance my game and induce uncertainty in my opp's. I'm still playing my first buy-in after clawing my way up from a couple of beats. I feel good and really focused.

STACKS:
Villain: $300ish
Hero: $115ish

ACTION:

Villain opens from UTG+1 to $4.
Hero calls w/ KQos.
3 other players call behind. SB and BB fold.
Pot is $20.

FLOP: Kh3h9c

Villain checks. Hero bets $12. All fold to Villain, who calls.
Pot: $44

TURN: 7d

Villain checks. Hero bets $25. (Likely to be on the small side for many of your taste, I'm guessing, however it leaves me a close to pot-sized stack on the river, and doesn't overly commit me here.) Villain calls.
Pot: $94

RIVER: 8c

Villain bets $75 (my stack) quickly. I'm getting roughly 2.25:1 on a call.
Hero ?
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Old 12-08-2014, 05:07 PM   #2
blueshoes
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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Old 12-08-2014, 06:25 PM   #3
position2getlucky
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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I think you mean call, right?
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:57 PM   #4
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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Looks like he backed into a straight
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:52 PM   #5
Nozsr
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

Villian is probably going to show us Kx suited that got there for two pair on the turn or river.

While he probably was dominated by us pre-flop and post-flop, there is a difference between "dominated" and "drawing dead", which is why larger bets on the flop and river can easily be justified.

If villain actually did catch runner-runner for a straight, GG him. But we still gotta call, I think, putting $41 into the pot, out of a $115 stack, and then folding usually isn't the right play.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:43 PM   #6
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

Pretty obvious you have a K and the river made his hand somehow.

Usualy when it's pretty obvious you have TP people at 1-2 (and lower I assume) don't really try to bluff you off of it.

You seems to have a lot of history thought so maybe this plays into it. Would he really not cbet 98o, K8o, TJo? Only you know. 98 most likely but you would think he'd fold OTT so wtf. Villain is ultra bad if he has any value hand that beat you beside a flopped monster so it'd be hard for me to fold agaisnt someone I consider a non-******.
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:16 PM   #7
position2getlucky
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

So, two people say he backdoored a straight, which I'm assuming is saying Hero folds in this spot?

I have one call, and another exploration of ranges.

I've ranged him a few different ways myself. Not to say I'm not interested in hearing how others would range his river bet.

But, what I'm mostly looking for here is: call or fold?

Also, why?
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:24 PM   #8
DeathCabForTootie
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

Grunch

Against this opponent, I 3b for value and isolate or fold PF. Our position sucks both relatively & absolutely. We got lucky the other players folded the flop.

Gross river, JT got there along with some cheeseball two pair like 89. Busted FD though and I like the odds I'm given. Plus, because we know villain is prone to spazzing and isn't scared, I like a call.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:08 PM   #9
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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Originally Posted by position2getlucky View Post
So, two people say he backdoored a straight, which I'm assuming is saying Hero folds in this spot?

I have one call, and another exploration of ranges.

I've ranged him a few different ways myself. Not to say I'm not interested in hearing how others would range his river bet.

But, what I'm mostly looking for here is: call or fold?

Also, why?
I like a fold, you gave a gut shot the right price to call on the the flop and gave an open ender the right price to call on the turn. He couldn't bet more on the river, he isn't bluffing.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:40 PM   #10
position2getlucky
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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I like a fold, you gave a gut shot the right price to call on the the flop and gave an open ender the right price to call on the turn. He couldn't bet more on the river, he isn't bluffing.
You're referring to the implied odds, right?

The gut shot is a rough 6:1 dog on the flop, and open-ender 4.5:1 on turn.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:10 PM   #11
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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Originally Posted by position2getlucky View Post
You're referring to the implied odds, right?

The gut shot is a rough 6:1 dog on the flop, and open-ender 4.5:1 on turn.
Of course.

Here's a question for you to consider FWIW, what do you think he thinks you have IE what hand range do you think he put you on? If you think he put you on a small range where you have at least a decent hand then the donk on the river is certainly not a bluff. Put another way, why would he think your hand is weak enough to move you off of it?
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:51 PM   #12
position2getlucky
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Re: .50/1 Full, Live NLHE, tricky river spot

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Originally Posted by adios View Post
Of course.

Here's a question for you to consider FWIW, what do you think he thinks you have IE what hand range do you think he put you on? If you think he put you on a small range where you have at least a decent hand then the donk on the river is certainly not a bluff. Put another way, why would he think your hand is weak enough to move you off of it?
Excellent question, Adios, and thank you for asking it. I've been asking myself that same question since pondering the scenario.

I call. He tables JTos.

When I was in the moment of making the decision, I felt that his mood might lead him to get out of line with a busted flush draw. However, I made the mistake of lumping all the possible flush-draw combinations together. Upon looking at the possible flush draws a little closer I realized that he would have c-bet and/or raised most of them either on the flop or turn (Overcard+, Straight draw+). That left me beating only *maybe* 96hh. I didn't feel bad about the call because I did think it through and take the time necessary to arrive at the decision deliberately, however my thinking process wasn't complete enough and my brain has been telling me something was missing. I believe that had I considered his perception of my range and being not only a K, but K's OR BETTER, it becomes a clear fold. In this particular game, there's quite a bit of level wars happening, and sometimes I think people can read me better than they really can i.e. he thinks I have exactly a K, when in fact they all give me a bit more credit strength-wise when it comes to stacking off.
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