Hero: LAG. On the immediate left of biggest donator in the game. Playing in smaller game than used to and probably best player at the table.

V1: Just came to the table. Has opened last 3 pots and c-bet. Possibly loose/aggressive.

V2: Seems to be playing fit-or-fold. Has won most hands that go to showdown, but is passive. Seems to know every player/dealer/floor/etc. so must be reg.



Hero: 1100
v1: 600
v2: 1000



BB (whale with 400): posts big blind
Hero (UTG+1) raises to 20 with 99
call
folds
v1 (CO) calls
v2 (SB) Raises to 80 [Hasn't 3b much, so probably a strong hand, although hand values at this table have been a little wider than normal]
Hero calls
v1 calls


Flop (265): 5J7
V2 Checks
Hero checks?? [Expected a C-bet. JJ and AK seem likely to me. ]
V1 checks

Turn (265): T
V2 checks
Hero Bets 125 [After her checks twice, I think AK/AQ type hands are possible. I might have best hand here, surely have fold equity, and can always spike an 8]
V1 calls 125
v2 calls 125

River (640): K
v2 checks
Hero bets 500 [I think both villains have showdown value, but I don't think either are prepared to call large bets. I want to rep the clubs, but I think if I bet too small, I'm getting looked up by everything from 2pair to straights. I think if I bomb, I'm folding out most non-flush hands. ]


Thoughts?

Fold pre if we don't have solid reads and we are going to be sandwiched in between an aggressive player and a passive player.

I'm honestly trying to get to SD. However, if you're trying to rep clubs, then you have to pay attention to your line.

The first thing that 99% of players do with a flushdraw when it's checked to them is bet. I think this is the key point in the hand. If we check the flop and go crazy on the turn and river it's going to look suspicious. Yes we have blockers to the straight, but does a straight bet so huge otr?

I'm not a fan of the turn bet (especially against two opponents) because they can call with such a wide range and we will be lost on the river. I.e. they can have overcards w/ a club, a J, a T, KQ, etc. So we're up against a range that will either have decent equity against us or will have us crushed. This is especially difficult against a passive player who will check behind QJ/AT otf.

Otr it's tough to say, because it's very unlikely we have the best hand. And although V2 may fold, we don't know what V1's calling tendencies are (if he has AK is he going to snap call with top pair?) So I c/f river without better reads.

Seems solid to me. AcQx appears to be the only hand in which you could get heroed. How's your image? Do your opponents perceive you as tight enough not to blast off in an attempt to fold out weak holdings? Not worried about V1 stationing after putting in 1/3 of his stack?

I think you need to bet the flop if you want to get anywhere here. When you have position on the PFR and they check on a board that has a single high card, that's the time to start selling the story, not later in the hand.

Coming to life on the turn and then missing all your outs on the river when you get action in 2 spots seems likes a bad time to "bomb" for less than pot when the river card hits their range a lot more than it hits yours. IMO, you're getting snap called by sets and straights. Maybe you fold out KJ/KT/JT type hands but that's about it.

I don't think I would be trying to bluff off a passive 3bettor preflop, ESP when almost everything gets their on the river.

Although you might be telling a story (and granted a flop bet would have been good here) but when you are trying to bluff recreational players off strong absolute value hands even though they may have no relative value to you, your still not going to like the outcome most times.

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seems pretty bad absent specific reads that they fold way too much to near pot size bets. your turn sizing probably precludes you from having non-nut flushes, and it is at least somewhat likely that one of them has AcKx/AcQx and blocks all your value combos, not to mention the fact that even those few combos are discounted by your flop check. im not sure that as V2 i would believe that you are ever valuebetting (or bluffing w/) sets/2p here, so AcKx would actually be a pretty good bluffcatcher, and is likely equal to AcQx.

On principle, I don't like this bluff (or bluffing in general) against V1 because he just came to the table. He could be a lag station, or just a station who ran hot at first, or slowplaying a monster, or a smart player who outthinks you and bluff catches successfully here. Also $500 looks really bluffy to me...would prefer $475 or $450. It's definitely cheaper and might actually work more often.

That said I've never bluffed $500 before, and principles need to be broken sometimes, and it looks like you could be trying to get fat value out of a misplayed AK, so I'm really curious about results.

haha...like how you switched roles from your other thread.

I think this is a bad bluff into two villains...believe villains are generally just calling stations at 2/5. Although if villains are competent and you've seen them able to get away from hands then they might be able to fold higher sets, straight draw, etc....

I stated in your other thread that I would fold KK though in this spot so......guess it would've worked on me. Would be more apt to call you down if I'd seen this type of play before from you though. Think by calling preflop, you essentially know you're going to be trying to bluff 2 villains from OOP unless you flop a set...just a high variance play. i would've just fold pre-flop against V.

On a side note, I noticed that I was in the minority that said they would've folded KK in your other thread so I think maybe this displays that this play doesn't work a high percentage of the time....

divine research

OSU told on me! This is an opposite thread and I'm actually villain 2 in sb with KK, so wanted thoughts on the bluff. Thanks or help.

+1.

This hand seemed too familiar
Good catch on the role reversal.

I don't understand why this won't work a good % of the time.
Why can't Hero have a flush here?
Do we always have to bet a FD on the flop when checked to by the PFR, especially with one more V behind us?
I don't think so.

I think hero's story is fine. We bet half pot on the turn when we made a flush, getting value from worse. And with 2 calls on the turn and the K on the river, we figure someone's made a straight or 2p and we are taking them to value town if they get get too stubborn with their 2p, sets or straights.

And by the way, I'm folding the set I kings in your previous thread.

I like the bluff but two problems. 1) terrible table image and 2) I don't think river sizing looks like a value hand. 350-400 is a cheaper bluff and possibly works just as well, if not better.

Okay, you did not mention any thing about having a bad image. That changes things quite a bit.

But assuming you had a decent image, I like a bet of 400 which will put V1 in CO all in, coz it's likely the station caught something on the river.

I mentioned it in the the other perspective. I didn't mention it here because I was giving his perspective. I'm sure he was oblivious to his image and literally thought he was the best player at the table, when I'd say he was one of the marks.

I've never created a Villain's perspective thread before! Hard to try to give reads from someone else's perspective.

It's funny how nearly everyone in this thread says it's a good bluff attempt, yet everyone says in the other thread that they would call down with KK.

Well, to be fair, a set of kings is, uhh, pretty high up in the 'ole bluff-catching range. And we don't know that he has a set of kings here, just a range of hands where KK is actually very unlikely.

I really don't like this bluff attempt because I think our villains' ranges are heavily skewed to AKx, AxK, AQx, type hands

What hands can call a preflop 3-bet yet let the flop bet check through, then simultaneously call the turn bet?

Sets are never folding, so even if V1 or V2 have a ******edly played set, they aren't going anywhere.

We do fold out QQ, but between the two villains, I just think the board connects with too much of their range. Yeah, we are repping the flush, yeah, our villains will be worried about the flush, but the pot is too big and it hit too much of their range so I expect a lot of emotional "I know you got be beat okay I call" type of calls.

Or put another way, I'm not sure our villains are good enough to fold their AK and AQ hands in this spot and unfortunately for us, their ranges are HEAVILY skewed to AK/AQ here.

I'd like it better if river was a brick. but with the river being a K, I just don't see our villains folding AK/AQ here, especially if they can "put you on a flush draw" so they can justify a hero call even though since they most likely have the A it's more likely you have a flush... It's just been my experience that in these spots, villains will use whatever logic enables them to call you down. So I expect a call like 80% of the time in this spot

Yea if I am thinking about your line I don't think it makes much sense in terms of you having a flush. After the PFR checks you should be betting your fd's like 90+% of the time. The only thing that really makes sense is TT, which I think you bet flop with a decent % of the time once checked to. KT makes sense too but that is highly discounted since you probably fold that pre. AQ is definitely in our range, but also in our V's range.

If the V's are level 1 or weak tight/scared money, then yea, they might think you have a flush or just fold because the big bet is scary. If they are good, thinking, and not scared money I think you get looked up often pretty light

I grunched this. So you are V2? Why did you play KK like this? Can you go through your thought process on every street?

I'm on my phone but you can read 5/5 playing KK cagey thread.

Check river. I think the K improves many combos calling the turn. Not sure im in love with the turn bet