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Old 06-27-2018, 02:49 PM   #1
BreakEvenAt1-3
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5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

5/5 Gardens

V1 ($550, SB): loose, spazzy gambler, VPIP >50%, will do random things like open 74s EP, get 4 callers, PSB flop of AKTr. Willing to get in any amount of $ with flush draws, overpairs.

V2 ($700, BB): Tight, old nit, bombs pot with good holdings, rarely bluffs

V3 ($1000, UTG): no reads, just sat down a few hands ago. Middle-aged asian guy, seems to be a gambly type from appearance alone

Hero ($600, CO): TAG image, been folding mostly for past 2 orbits before this hand

OTTH

Hero with KK in CO
UTG limps
Hero raises to 25
SB, BB, UTG call

Flop [$100]: QJT
SB, BB check
UTG donks for 120
Hero?
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Old 06-27-2018, 03:08 PM   #2
EastCoastHoosier
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Would it be too nitty to fold here? This smacks a utg limp call range - at best we are up against a pair + flush/strait draw and there are two players left to act.

With Unkown V I'd muck and look for a better spot only giving up 25$ on this hand

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Old 06-27-2018, 03:18 PM   #3
BreakEvenAt1-3
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by EastCoastHoosier View Post
Would it be too nitty to fold here? This smacks a utg limp call range - at best we are up against a pair + flush/strait draw and there are two players left to act.

With Unkown V I'd muck and look for a better spot only giving up 25$ on this hand

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I think folding is too weak here, I was mainly deciding whether to flat or raise/GII. I have great equity against pair/SDs (70%+ vs AQ/KQ, 55% vs AT). Even against 98, K9 (which I block), and sets (which no one should have based on preflop action), I have 30%.
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Old 06-27-2018, 03:22 PM   #4
canadiasian
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

I like a larger open size based on stack sizes - $30-$35.

As played, I would call and evaluate - I would fold if SB/BB C/R Flop.

I think there are enough scare cards on the Turn/River (for both you and Villain) that this will check through at least one street.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:04 PM   #5
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Call flop.

Yes the sizing is indicative of a big hand (QJ, JJ, TT, JT, 9T), but we are still IP and drawing to the nuts here.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:14 PM   #6
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by BreakEvenAt1-3 View Post
V3 ($1000, UTG): no reads, just sat down a few hands ago. Middle-aged asian guy, seems to be a gambly type from appearance alone
racist ban... jk

For sure not folding. Looking at the numbers, both options seem acceptable but I personally lean towards call and evaluate turn especially with no reads or dynamics with V other than his appearance. Interested in how it played out.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:17 PM   #7
EastCoastHoosier
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by BreakEvenAt1-3 View Post
I think folding is too weak here, I was mainly deciding whether to flat or raise/GII. I have great equity against pair/SDs (70%+ vs AQ/KQ, 55% vs A5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot:T5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot. Even against 98, K9 (which I block), and sets (which no one should have based on preflop action), I have 30%.
Definitely want to look at this more, but the combos of hands that you think V would do this with is where the answer is. The most likely hands are ones that have you beat:

K9 - 8 combos
98 - 16 combos
QJ/QT/JT - 9 combos each (probably discount JT)

You beat
AQ - 12
KQ - 6

"Flip" with AdTd 1 combo

Being that I'm supposed to be working I can't do everything I'd like but it looks like you would need to weight V to more made hands that have you at ~30%. Hopefully I'll be able to finish my thoughts later...

If I was to continue I'd probably flat and evaluate as we should have a clearer picture after the other 2 Vs act and then after the turn action. No need to fold out dominated hands on the flop.

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Old 06-27-2018, 04:23 PM   #8
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Fold. Could be ahead, but how often/much will we get paid hitting a 4-card straight.

Opponent over bet pot, so if behind, we would need to double up with dirty outs to make calling slightly profitable. Sizing looks like 2-pr/TT who wants to take it down now.

Additionally, we have 16 combos of AK in our PFR, yet he is betting into the nut part of our range.

Imho, fold>>>raise>>>>>>call.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:28 PM   #9
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Just peel one and re-evaulate turn.

Guy could even have AQ and be "trying to protect"

Can obv fold brick turns if he keeps blasting
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:44 PM   #10
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by samo View Post
Fold. Could be ahead, but how often/much will we get paid hitting a 4-card straight.

Opponent over bet pot, so if behind, we would need to double up with dirty outs to make calling slightly profitable. Sizing looks like 2-pr/TT who wants to take it down now.

Additionally, we have 16 combos of AK in our PFR, yet he is betting into the nut part of our range.

Imho, fold>>>raise>>>>>>call.
This is terrible.

Raising here accomplishes nothing as we have ZERO fold equity. V is never bluffing here, so We get it in as a dog.

If we make the nuts OTT, you think V check folds 89 or 2p/sets? If a diamond hits, and V checks, we can check back IP and look to bink river. Also, its not about getting "paid off" here. We are not set mining or looking to play a spec hand preflop, we are realizing our equity.

Last edited by HomelessPizza; 06-27-2018 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:54 PM   #11
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

I can't see him having anything less than two pair here. He limp/called UTG. Usually when older players over bet the pot (especially in a multi way hand) they're betting to protect something which is higher than TPTK.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:09 PM   #12
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
This is terrible.

Raising here accomplishes nothing as we have ZERO fold equity. V is never bluffing here, so We get it in as a dog.

If we make the nuts OTT, you think V check folds 89 or 2p/sets? If a diamond hits, and V checks, we can check back IP and look to bink river. Also, its not about getting "paid off" here. We are not set mining or looking to play a spec hand preflop, we are realizing our equity.
Getting a fair return should not halt at the pre-flop stage.

Let's say Hero has 8 outs (A/9), or 8/45 remaining cards. This calcs to 17.8%, meaning Hero would need to get a return of 4.62x on a $120 call. This equates to $555. With $220 in the pot Hero needs to get an additional $335 in returns. This will be difficult because:
1) Straight is not disguised;
2) Outs are dirty;
3) Potential river re-draw;
4) Hero stack.

Last edited by samo; 06-27-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:40 PM   #13
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
Getting a fair return should not halt at the pre-flop stage.

Let's say Hero has 8 outs (A/9), or 8/45 remaining cards. This calcs to 17.8%, meaning Hero would need to get a return of 4.62x on a $120 call. This equates to $555. With $220 in the pot Hero needs to get an additional $335 in returns. This will be difficult because:
1) Straight is not disguised;
2) Outs are dirty;
3) Potential river re-draw;
4) Hero stack.
You are discounting the fact that other fishy V's in hand could call with worse draws.

Also, you are assuming V only has sets with 8 outs. H could have outs to a K or board pair to better 2p.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:17 PM   #14
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
You are discounting the fact that other fishy V's in hand could call with worse draws.

Also, you are assuming V only has sets with 8 outs. H could have outs to a K or board pair to better 2p.
Wait, wut?
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:17 PM   #15
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Tough spot. On the plus side, this should ~never be a set or AK. Mostly two pair, 98s, AdXd, Td9d... I don't really think he has a lot of other pair + sd type hands, as he would likely just check those.

My very first instinct was fold, my second was call and evaluate. Against AdXd, Td9d, 98s, QJs, QTs, JTs you have 50 percent, but that range might be slightly optimistic, since he could still have a few set or off-suit two pair combos and not all nut fd's... As I stated before I just don't think he takes an overbet donk line with AQ or any other pair+draw hand. He either wants to protect a very good made hand or wants to go for max FE with a big draw (with no SD value) iyam.

Because there are two other players behind you who can still raise if you call you aren't guaranteed to see a turn if you do. There are only six turn we'd be actually happy to see. Sure, we might have more outs, or might still be ahead if the turn isn't a diamond or an A, but we wouldn't know, would we? There are just so many uncertainties.

I gotta be honest, I have no idea what to do... Fold, call, shove, there's something to say for all of them. Very interested to hear some other opinions, coz I'm lost.

Last edited by Homey D. Clown; 06-27-2018 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:32 PM   #16
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by BreakEvenAt1-3 View Post
I think folding is too weak here, I was mainly deciding whether to flat or raise/GII. I have great equity against pair/SDs (70%+ vs AQ/KQ, 55% vs AT). Even against 98, K9 (which I block), and sets (which no one should have based on preflop action), I have 30%.
Why would someone be more likely to have AQ/KQ than TT or AK? You were there so you can make any read you want, but that sounds odd.

If you type normal ranges into some tool (like ProPoker Tools) you're likely to win this pot about 50% of the time. Don't you think the times someone overbet donks is likely the 50% where you're not likely to win the hand?

You only have 3 outs to the nuts (and 3 additional outs to what is likely the nuts). Assuming your six outs are live, you're going to hit 12.8% of the time on the turn. You need 35.7% equity to call the overbet.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:36 PM   #17
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
Raising here accomplishes nothing as we have ZERO fold equity. V is never bluffing here, so We get it in as a dog.
I think we have FE since a jam would look liked a flopped straight. I don't know how many players would snap call an all in with top and bottom, flush draws, pairs and a draw, etc. Hero said the UTG older asian guy looked like a gambler. I don't know what that means, but if it means he could be doing this with AJ, then we do have some FE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown View Post
Tough spot. On the plus side, this should ~never be a set or AK. Mostly two pair, 98s, AdXd, Td9d...
I would think AK is certainly in his range since older weak players do limp call it from any position. Your post actually supports folding though, imo.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:51 PM   #18
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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I think we have FE since a jam would look liked a flopped straight. I don't know how many players would snap call an all in with top and bottom, flush draws, pairs and a draw, etc.

Really don't understand this. You are turning KK into a bluff?

If you are hoping to get a LLSNL player to muck whatever hand they just overbet into the pfr, especially at these stack sizes, you are playing the wrong game.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:05 PM   #19
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

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Really don't understand this. You are turning KK into a bluff?

If you are hoping to get a LLSNL player to muck whatever hand they just overbet into the pfr, especially at these stack sizes, you are playing the wrong game.
I disagreed that we have zero FE. I think the donk out villain has some folds on a dripping wet flop.

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Old 06-27-2018, 09:44 PM   #20
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Allin. Our hand has horrible playability on the turn with money behind, but huge equity against any reasonable range. We probably can’t even capture the whole pot when we hit our hand because of chops and redraws, and not knowing when we have the best hand on a dirty out. It’s a huge bonus if he ever folds something like two pair, which he should.
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:34 AM   #21
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Well, you have two others yet to really act after the PFR (which is you) so I think raising here is a big overplay (just because they "checked to the raiser" does not mean they don't have a big hand). It is just a crappy spot overall and I can see merit to both calling/evaluate (and folding to a backraise) or just folding now. I think we have too much equity to simply fold now, so I call and see what develops. Hopefully the other two either fold or call, but I am not willing to risk my stack until I see what they do.
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:23 PM   #22
BreakEvenAt1-3
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Wow, this thread blew up. Appreciate all the input - seems like check/eval and fold to a sizable X/R or jam from original donker is the popular vote, which is not what I ended up doing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by au4all View Post
Why would someone be more likely to have AQ/KQ than TT or AK? You were there so you can make any read you want, but that sounds odd.

If you type normal ranges into some tool (like ProPoker Tools) you're likely to win this pot about 50% of the time. Don't you think the times someone overbet donks is likely the 50% where you're not likely to win the hand?

You only have 3 outs to the nuts (and 3 additional outs to what is likely the nuts). Assuming your six outs are live, you're going to hit 12.8% of the time on the turn. You need 35.7% equity to call the overbet.
I figure most people would open AK and TT-QQ UTG pre. I thought maybe UTG would be more likely to limp strong non-premiums like AQ/KQ, but this might be me trying to convince myself I have more equity than I really do. I suppose if we discount sets and the nut straight, we have to discount a lot of pair/SDs as well.

I donít think we necessarily need to improve to a straight to win this hand, as thereís several draws UTG could donk with that we are ahead of - T9dd, ATdd, KTdd, A9dd. Weíre flipping with any 2 pair, only in bad shape vs 4 combos of 98s and 2 combos of K9s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastHoosier View Post
Definitely want to look at this more, but the combos of hands that you think V would do this with is where the answer is. The most likely hands are ones that have you beat:

K9 - 8 combos
98 - 16 combos
QJ/QT/JT - 9 combos each (probably discount JT)

You beat
AQ - 12
KQ - 6

"Flip" with AdTd 1 combo

Being that I'm supposed to be working I can't do everything I'd like but it looks like you would need to weight V to more made hands that have you at ~30%. Hopefully I'll be able to finish my thoughts later...

If I was to continue I'd probably flat and evaluate as we should have a clearer picture after the other 2 Vs act and then after the turn action. No need to fold out dominated hands on the flop.

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After thinking about this hand some more, I think this is a reasonable range for UTG:

4 combos 98s
2 combos K9s
3 combos QJs
2 combos JTs
2 combos QTs
ATdd, KTdd, T9dd, A9dd
1 combo TT (assume 1/3 chance of him limping this UTG)

If I was heads up, Iíd have 39.7% equity against that range.

I think assuming he limps AQ/KQ and not AK/QQ/JJ is biased thinking on my part, trying to give myself more equity than I really have. He either limps or opens all those hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
Well, you have two others yet to really act after the PFR (which is you) so I think raising here is a big overplay (just because they "checked to the raiser" does not mean they don't have a big hand). It is just a crappy spot overall and I can see merit to both calling/evaluate (and folding to a backraise) or just folding now. I think we have too much equity to simply fold now, so I call and see what develops. Hopefully the other two either fold or call, but I am not willing to risk my stack until I see what they do.
So I ended up raising to 275 as an equity protection play, trying to get 2p and FDs to fold. I figure heads up against above range I have decent equity, but vs 2 players im probably behind vs at least one and drawing to at most 6 outs vs the other.

I can see how calling/eval turn might be better though, esp since Iím IP and thereís a percentage of the time I get a free card OTR to fully realize my equity for cheap. I just wasnít sure what Iíd do if blinds 3b jammed - didnít feel good to call 120 then have to fold. In the moment I was comfortable just GII OTF.
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:01 PM   #23
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Re: 5/5 Tough spot with KK in multiway pot

Alright, seems like discussion died here, so I'll just post results since some people seemed interested in the outcome.

Spoiler:
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