Table is very loose passive, hence the limp pre. New game that started ~1hr ago.

Eff stacks ~$550

A few early limps and hero follows in MP w. 98. Total of 6 to the flop.

$24

JT5

checked to Hero, who leads for $15. 2 people call who have position on us.

$69

7

Hero $40, call, raise to $105, Hero..? ~$425 left in stacks.

Jam it and get paid by 55

Easy shove

Given the action shove now. Stack size is actually a bit awkward but any substantial raise will be more then half your stack. If you flat or raise small villains are likely to figure somebody for 98 and not pay you off on the river.

Do not bet flop and $40 is too small ott

Raise, too many straights+combo draws can get you, not to mention boats

Not betting flop is bad advice. Sounds like we have position on most players and getting called by 2 guys who have position on us is simply an unlucky result. This is a prime bluffing hand 6 handed, along with Q9. We can keep barreling depending on who calls us, and we have plenty of equity with a back door flush draw as well

I'm not sure I ever bluff flop in 6-handed limped pots, particularly with a J and a T on the board. This board smacks a limper's range.

Not bluffing OTB I think is a leak. First to act I think that's standard to check. These are strong bluffs im talking about - good equity against whatever calls

Understand this is a semi-bluff with 98 or Q9, and it's also table/game-dependent, but I would just never, ever expect my bet to get through 5 other people with a J and a T on the flop. I also don't necessarily want to thin the field here, because if we hit a 7 we have the nuts and if we hit a Q we have the third nuts (and effectively the second nuts because you'd expect AK to raise pre), so I want people involved.

That's reasonable. Theoretically bad, but i can see it being the most +ev play sometimes. The only other argument I have is that if we don't bet, we're just relying on hitting our hand. Whereas betting allows us to evaluate how profitable a turn barrel would be once the field is thinned, depending on who calls the flop bet. Basically thinning the field = opportunity to make +ev plays on future streets, and checking = getting 2 streets of value 17% of the time, and one street 34% of the time.

Betting in a limped pot with a bare open ender with 1 or 2 or 7 or whatever people still ip on us 6 ways on specifically a JTx flop with 9 high is bad. Its not debatable.

There is also a very large difference between 89 and Q9.

I think betting is totally fine with back door flush draw added. Prolly wouldn't bet without.

It's debatable. You should open your mind up to the possibility that not everything you say is the be all end all correct way, especially considering you often give poor/suspect advice that probably often has people headed in the wrong direction

Betting flop is spew TBH. waaaaay too multi-way, even with the BDFD

bet more OTF, AP jam turn

I'm very interested to learn the reasons behind this. I can see some advantages and disadvantages to a bet, I can see some advantages and disadvantages to a flat. Love to learn more.

I think we should be ISOing pre flop. We should not adjust and play poorly because our opponents do.

Flop - A bet is justifiable. $15 isn't going to fold out 6 players, but we have an OESD & BDFD. Taking initiative & starting to build a medium sized pot is just fine.

Turn - We don't have a lot of information. The other player in the hand complicates things. Heads up, a call could be justified. But 3 way, with a funky SPR, just shove now.

-# of players to get through, not good.
-% equity in our hand, not great but not zero
-Very few nut cards for our hand while a lot of cards that will cause us to have to continue

I'm opening this hand at times and limping at times depending on image, how sticky players are, stack depth etc.

Thanks.

Agreed we're very rarely getting though everyone.

Thoughts on:
Leading out here sets up a viable turn bluff on some turn cards (assuming we've thinned the field and seized the initiative)?

Creating a bigger pot when we do hit?

Some possibility of getting a free turn card?

Some increase in equity by folding out hands that have a redraw (K if a Q comes, BDFD that get to the front door, etc.)?

I'm not saying these factors make it a clear bet, but "spew" seems a little strong.

The problem is our perceived range is weak; we rep 55 and some JT combos along with a few Qx combos (most of which we should be opening pre).

Granted, I'm guessing based on OPs description we aren't up against good hand readers so a bet here *may not* be as bad as originally but the sheer amount of players to get through (with both poor absolute and relative position) makes me think a flop bet is not ideal.

Its hard for me to explain this without just saying "play more plo" but really this becomes a pretty standard spot after you've played plo.

In live plo it is generally unwise to bet oop with draws, even strong draws, in multiway fields. This is because there is very little fold equity, especially in limped pots on connected boards. And when you bet a draw you generally want fold equity because well, you have 9 high. There are other reasons for being passive in these spots, such as not wanting to get folded off of your own equity.

Plo also helps you think about every single turn card. I never thought like this playing nlh but plo I'm literally running 47 cards (in groupings ldo) through my head otf.

On this flop with 98, there are only 4 great turn cards for us. The 7s. They also dont overnut anyone, and when we produce significant action, our hand will be face up.

Some "good" turn cards would be the clubs, but upon examination we need to realize they arent created equal.

The A,K,J clubs are relatively bad turn barrels. This is bc a villain flop continuing range on JTx is going to be broadway heavy and will either make a straight, an open ender, a gutshot, trips, or 2 pair.

The other clubs, 2,3,4,5,6 arent great barrels either, bc they are not scare cards. As you see, on JTx textures you really have a catch 22 bc normally good scare cards (overcards) are not scare cards as they favor a continuing range and good cards (2-6) dont fold out alot of the flop continuing range. Yes clubs help maintain our equity which is great and all but we'll still need fold equity with it.

Even a Q, which gives us our straight, completes K9 which most certainly calls $15 otf. It also gives KJ/T an open ender (cards that maintain equity for villain are important).

So Q9 would be a much better bet here, and KQ even more so, bc they have more equity, turn more equity, turn/river more pair value, and can overnut people, as just a few reasons.

I would bet a 237 flop, possibly even 6 ways, with 89 before I would bet OP's flop. That is because overcard club turns are GREAT for us with both fold equity and real equity, because its such a dry texture we might just have fold equity otf, because we have pair outs, and because we have 2 three card draws to the effective nuts.

But i bet a lot of people would check the 237. So you see, its not as simple as "i haz open ender...i bet". There are alot of considerations, and 89 on JTx can be a crappier hand than 89 on 237 in a limped pot 6 ways

table plays loose passive - I assume so does villain?

A loose passive wakes up and wants to put money in when you have the nuts, I am going to oblige and/or help by putting more of my money in as a response to their suggested wager size

Just ****ing listen Avarita. Seriously. He put into terms what I had in mind but am too ******ed to be able to write.

PLO makes one a better NLHE player for sure. I definitely cbet/bluff multi way now than used to.

Betting out an open ender isn't bad.

But it would be better if it was the high end rather than the low end.