Late Saturday Night Full Ring NLHE

Reads and History
Hero: TAG/LAG image. Been with Villain and Fish for my entire session 8 hours ago. Showed value bets, light/value 3bets, and bet/folds.

V1: TAG image. Young asian baseball cap. When V1 was to my direct left he 3bet me in the SB with KK vs. my Bt isolation raise i call with AQo and get stacked on a dry Q high flop with V1 checking and me betting on flop and turn. Pretty sure he has reads on me. He built his stack up to 2.5k at one point during the session but has been losing lately and I sense a little tilt in him.

Utg Fish limps to $5 with 1K behind
Hj V1 raises to $30 with $1700 behind
Co Hero 3bets to $100 (covers) with 88
Bt, Blinds and fish fold. V1 calls

Pot: $210
Flop: T86

V1 checks
Hero bets $125
V1 calls

Pot: $460
Turn: K

V1 checks
Hero thinks 10-15 sec bets $250
V1 raises all to $1475

Hero? What is V1 range here?

most of the time KK;TT. i really don´t see much else tbh, he really doesn´t seem to be the guy overplaying a hand, especially deep. he seems to be a cautious player and i would really be surprised to see something like KT or J9hh here. if there ever is a time to fold a set, it is this spot imo. i wouldn´t blame you for calling, but looking at it objectively, it feels like you are crushed the majority of the time.

There is a fish limping with 1k (200bb) behind, and you decided to kick the fish out of the pot by 3-betting your 88 from CO against the HJ TAG PFR?

3-betting preflop here with 88 is horrible, and you are lighting money on fire by refusing to flat-call 88 here to let the deep-stacked fish join the pot.

Have you 3bet him before? What happened? Also, would he overlimp with 66?

My reasoning for such a play vs this fish was because he was your typical
loose passive fish limping in with anything suited and raising only premiums AA-JJ and AK. When he sees a flop he's pretty much fit or fold vs my cbets and raises when he has the nuts or near the nuts.

I also expect hj iso raise to be pretty wide when fish limps

this is my 1st time 3betting him. I wouldn't expect him to over limp 66 with fish limping in.

Why are you 3-betting 88 here? Just because HJ is iso-raising a wide range isn't a good enough reason to be 3-betting ANY HAND here unless you know WHY you are 3-betting.

So again, why are you 3-betting 88?

+1

Only reason to 3bet 88 is as like the very bottom of a very wide extended value range/isolation versus a very bad player who opens wide, calls very wide, then plays very passive and straight forward post flop.

Should be done versus A+++ whales.

Totally agree here on this analysis. I mean, in a vacuum it seems sick to fold a set on this dry of a board. But this type of player i dont see getting out of line with spazz or semibluff type of hand with this kind of money. This smells to me like a valueraise allin with very nutty hand like set of T or K, and he wants to give you an opportunity to make a big mistake and call it off.

My experience is that tight/rockish kind of players on rare ocassions can spazz out, but thats very rare IMO. And its takes a soul read to figure out when that happens. If i am balanced in my mind and not on frustrationtilt or anything i probably can manage to lay this down, but its very very hard for sure.

If he's a good player, he's only doing this with TT. 97s folds out pre being oop, and he's never range merging here with AK. Maybe KTs, 66, and air using the over card as scare card?(prob not cause it hits your perceived range and allows you to barrel)

If ive seen V bluff before, i call, as your hand is pretty underrepped

Range should be AA, KK, TT, 66, J9hh, QJhh, 78hh, 9Thh, 79s, KTs. I'm still not folding. Most players are not overbet shoving with TT/KK here as they would prob c/r and shove river.

FWIW, I hate the way OP played preflop, but...

I call the turn overbet shove because Villain is a young Asian, and OP has a set on a non-flushed board.

Yay, racial profiling. People should never fold sets to young Asians...

So we are basically just calling the $30 to setmine or to flop a straight, or hope the board comes under cards.

Isn't that as bad of a reason not to 3bet?

I honestly feel like it can swing both ways, but to say 3betting is terrible doesn't make much sense.

young asians are nits, it is the middle aged FOB asians that I am never folding too

I agree with all of these posts

+1

Who said I was set-mining?

I would be calling 88 preflop with position to play some poker post flop. If Villain c-bets air a lot, I will be bluff-catching with an unimproved pair often. If the situation warrants it, I will even turn my 88 into a bluff on later streets.

88 can be a good 3-bet in certain rare spots. This spot IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

3betting a TAG here with 88 is bad, especially when it prevents the fish from coming along

Klondike, I probably 3-bet with about 4x as high a frequency as you do, and this is a horrible spot to 3-bet 88.

Why is that? Because you are grossly overplaying your small pair and also kicking the fish out the pot too.

LOL all Asians are not nits. The young ones born in the U.S. try to play well (by the book TAG), but they become massive spew monkeys if you get them stuck 2k and/or tilt them in other ways. The conservative old Asians try to play tight and nitty because they think that is the smart way to play poker, but they start playing like 75% VPIP whales once you get them stuck 2k+.

FWIW, young Asians are good at math, and that's why they are more aggressive and bluffy than poker players in general. This is the same reason that Finns are very aggressive and bluffy too (they are good at math). Anyone with a good background in math is likely to be an aggressive poker player.

Cliffs: I always salivate when I see a bunch of Asians at my poker table. Even if they are tight, I know that some of them will start tilting our of their minda if I get them stuck early and/or bluff them in a big pot. Bring on the Asians!

I understand your reasoning for flat calling in this spot. Trying to get fish in the pot. A high % of the time I do flat call this type of hand when I'm 100-150bb's deep. But 200-300bb's deep what is the optimal way to play? who knows it usually depends.

This

There are several players in my pool who are good if they are up but if they are stuck the chips flow forth like the water from the rock of moses

OP, you took a gift from the poker gods and effectively turned it into a bluff.

Call it thin value raise or range merging w/e, but in plain English you took a hand with awesome implied odds, not to mention bluff catching potential, and raised out a deep fish as well as took away aggression from the pfr, WHEN WE HAVE POSITION ON BOTH OF THEM.

Like if you realize Asian is iso raising alot, K5 would be a much better hand to 3bet here.

88 is just way to valuable, you took away both your implied odds and your bluff catching potential.


As played...

...what more do you need? Honestly Ace high is probably good here.

Actually, the deeper that you are, the less often that you should 3-bet 88.

To see the obvious logic in this, what would you do with 88 if a LAG HJ opened for 6bbs with a wide range and had only 25bbs to start the hand? I assume you would snap-fist-pump 3-bet him for his stack.

So, since I just showed you that it is more correct to 3-bet 88 vs a wide opener when the opener is shorter-stacked...

Do you understand now why your argument that you should 3-bet 88 at 200bb+ and flat-call 88 at 100-150bbs is horribly backwards and flawed?