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Old 10-02-2018, 10:38 PM   #1
aisrael01
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5/5 nl, river bluff line check

5/5, uncapped.

V1 is a TAG, Asian Male, mid 30s, 5/5 reg. Good player as far as I can tell. Nothing notable readwise, probably an ABC player (700).

V2 is a whale, ready to commit his entire stack with any strongish hand. Likes to make pot-sized raise with 2-pair+. He'll call down with any draw, and fold the river if he misses (3k).

Hero normally plays at 2/3. Taking a shot at this game, so likely viewed as a cautious player. Bought in for 1k and sitting at around 1100.

Straddle on for 10. V2 limps, 1 other limper, Hero completes in the SB with 8T, V1 completes in the BB, straddle checks. 5 ways to the flop.

Flop: 69Q (pot=50)
Hero flops a double belly buster and a flush draw.
Hero leads for 35, V1 raises to 75, V2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: 6 (pot=275)
Hero checks, V1 bets 125, V2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: 5 (pot=650)
Hero leads 350.

Thoughts: V1s bet sizing indicates that Q9 is the top of his range -- I think he would have raised larger on the flop with 69. V2 is primarily showing up with a missed draw. On the other hand, my range is essentially uncapped. I have full houses and 78 a lot of the time here. 8T is one of my better bluffs since my 8 is a blocker to the nut straight.

Last edited by aisrael01; 10-02-2018 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:33 PM   #2
branch0095
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Personally I don't like it, and I'd fold pre from the SB. The pot is already going to be bloated from the straddle, you're limping in from the worst position on the table, and there's still the chance that the straddler raises large to isolate or pick up the dead money. Just not a hand I want to play from the SB in a MW straddled pot, especially without initiative.

Flop is fine, though I think I like a c/r better. Lead is okay, as you have gobs of equity against everything. Being against a larger FD would be bad, but even there you're not in terrible shape. Calling the raise seems standard.

Turn seems standard too. The board pairing isn't great, but you're getting 3/1.

The river bluff doesn't make much sense to me, and I wouldn't expect it to fold out anything but the bottom of Vs range. 87 is the only hand that comes in, J10 and clubs brick, and you're giving a V (who's raised flop and bet turn) 3/1 on a call on a river that changes very little.
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:40 PM   #3
aisrael01
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Thanks for the comments.

I should have mentioned that the straddler was a short stack, so when I complete the 5 dollars from the SB, I expect to get to see a flop the majority of the time.

I agree that I don't have a ton of value in this spot, but I do have some value - I think I show up with 78 often enough in this spot that I can afford to have a few bluff combos. Maybe like 4-6 combos, when I bet half pot. I don't know if this line makes any sense for me to have 78o.

Would it have been better to choose a more polarizing bet size -- something like 450-475?
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:43 PM   #4
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Pre is fine.

Id check flop you literally have zero fold equity here, doesnt matter if your equity is good. You’ll get called almost always. Just check and evaluate, either x/c or x/r based on actions and bet sizings and how many callers.

Turn just fold dude, the board is paired and you’re no longer drawing to the nuts in any way. Your flush half the time probably wont even be good on rivers.

River is pretty bleh. Flop started 5-way and although you block 87 there’s still a good amount out there, and V1 is uncapped and has a crap ton of boats and may not even fold two pair to your strange line.

Also if you did have a straight it certainly shouldnt be a donk... you fold out other bluffs/a good amount of weak hands, and V1 should have a lot more boats than Q9 that might not even hero anyway and the other player can also have some strangely played boats as well

Imo pretty spewy hand whether it got thru or not
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:51 PM   #5
aisrael01
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

You ignored my read that the whale (V2) rarely slowplays. He has very few boats in his range.V1 might have a boat, but he has more combos of Q9 than 69. I only need the bluff to work like 30ish% of the time to show a profit.

I don't understand why we aren't supposed to have a leading range on this river. Aren't we assuming that V1 will often check behind unless he has a boat?

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Pre is fine.

Id check flop you literally have zero fold equity here, doesnt matter if your equity is good. You’ll get called almost always. Just check and evaluate, either x/c or x/r based on actions and bet sizings and how many callers.

Turn just fold dude, the board is paired and you’re no longer drawing to the nuts in any way. Your flush half the time probably wont even be good on rivers.

River is pretty bleh. Flop started 5-way and although you block 87 there’s still a good amount out there, and V1 is uncapped and has a crap ton of boats and may not even fold two pair to your strange line.

Also if you did have a straight it certainly shouldnt be a donk... you fold out other bluffs/a good amount of weak hands, and V1 should have a lot more boats than Q9 that might not even hero anyway and the other player can also have some strangely played boats as well

Imo pretty spewy hand whether it got thru or not
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:50 AM   #6
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

I would be check raising flop rather than leading. If you check raise, you need to bet almost every turn

as played, I hate the river bluff into two villains...what are you repping other than a missed draw?
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:11 AM   #7
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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what are you repping other than a missed draw?
78
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:20 AM   #8
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Is there an unwritten rule never to bluff the straight when the flush draw misses?

If the roles were reversed, and the club draw came in on the river, and say I had JTo, would that be a good spot to bluff?

I guess I thought my line should look pretty strong betting into two players, and V1 still has to worry about V2 behind, making it harder for him to call.

I don't doubt my line looks suspicious. Just trying to understand why ... I'm supposed to have 78 often enough in this spot.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:30 AM   #9
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by aisrael01 View Post
Is there an unwritten rule never to bluff the straight when the flush draw misses?

If the roles were reversed, and the club draw came in on the river, and say I had JTo, would that be a good spot to bluff?

I guess I thought my line should look pretty strong betting into two players, and V1 still has to worry about V2 behind, making it harder for him to call.

I don't doubt my line looks suspicious. Just trying to understand why ... I'm supposed to have 78 often enough in this spot.
In general, the best thing about straight draws coming in on a flush draw board is that they're harder to see, people more often put you on a busted flush draw and as a result, you get paid more often...which is why they're less effective to bluff

a non club 7 would have been the best card for you to get paid on, followed by a non club J, albeit...we're still on a paired board where a villain has shown a good amount of strength, so a straight (and definitely the 3rd nut flush) would be a bet/fold on this board
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:41 AM   #10
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Fold pre. As played crai flop. As played, I thought I wasn't going to like this play, but it seems ok. You are right that this is our best bluff combo other than JT no clubs. If we are trying to play balanced and have a leading range here, it should probably look like JTs no clubs, T8s, and then value like 66, 87, 65 etc. The problem is, I don't know if we are folding out Q9 here and does he really raise one pair Qx on the flop? We do fold out ace high clubs draws and JT which is nice but is that enough?

I probably wouldn't pull the trigger here, I just don't think I'm getting enough folds, but I don't hate it.
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Old 10-03-2018, 04:16 AM   #11
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by aisrael01 View Post
Is there an unwritten rule never to bluff the straight when the flush draw misses?

If the roles were reversed, and the club draw came in on the river, and say I had JTo, would that be a good spot to bluff?

I guess I thought my line should look pretty strong betting into two players, and V1 still has to worry about V2 behind, making it harder for him to call.

I don't doubt my line looks suspicious. Just trying to understand why ... I'm supposed to have 78 often enough in this spot.
Calling 87 ott on a paired board with a fd is definitely a losing call
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Old 10-03-2018, 04:45 AM   #12
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

If you are going to bluff I would rather go for a check/raise bluff on the river rather than a lead. I doubt V is going to fold any of his value here as you are repping far too narrow on a board where a lot of other things miss. You will probably get him off his missed draws that have you beat. (But maybe he reads the situation well and jams ontop of your river lead with his missed draws, don't think he will be calling with his Ace or King high or JT)
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:50 AM   #13
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Fold pre, c/r flop, give up river.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:55 AM   #14
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

Fold pre is ridiculous.

Flop is okay.

AP, fold the turn.

On the river, just check fold, you can't bluff this hand, your range analysis just doesn't make sense, you really just capped with a busted draw (unless 78cc and it's not nutted) - you won't have QQ/99/6x (except 69s if you play this hand in sb), you may have the only combo of 66 (less likely as you would 3bet on the flop, also you are unlikely to donk the flop). 78 you would fold the turn unless 78cc.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:51 PM   #15
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by PokerNoob@ View Post
Fold pre is ridiculous.
Is it being in the SB you like so much or putting another $8 to win $35 against 4 other players?
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:54 PM   #16
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by aisrael01 View Post
Is there an unwritten rule never to bluff the straight when the flush draw misses?
Yes.

In fact, I think Iíll write that down...
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:01 PM   #17
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Yes.

In fact, I think I’ll write that down...
Snarky comment aside (I sometime can’t help myself), I actually don’t see how you get to the river with any 78 or any 6 (except maybe 96s, which is a streatch). So, in addition to the fact that bluffing into two sticky villains — with one being described as a whale (whales call and sometimes don’t even see the straight you’re representing), I don’t think the bluff is credible.

I like the check-raise flop, bet turn idea best. Chase with good implied odds (whales call) is second best. I don’t bluff this river.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:06 PM   #18
aisrael01
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

This is 5/5. It's an additional 5 into a pot of 40 (likely to be 45, as BB and straddle are short). I'm risking 1/200th of my stack. Obvious call pre.

Quote:
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Is it being in the SB you like so much or putting another $8 to win $35 against 4 other players?

Last edited by aisrael01; 10-03-2018 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:19 PM   #19
aisrael01
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

All the comments correcting my range analysis are useful. I should only be calling the turn with a narrow range, consisting of (value) 2 combos of 69s, 1 combo of 7c8c, a few combos of 9Q, and (air) 8cTc, TcJc.

What I'm getting from these replies is that this is a spot where I shouldn't have a balanced bluffing range because opponents are calling too frequently when I take this line.

Results are that V1 tank folded and V2 insta-folded. I showed the table the bluff. I believe V1 had 9cxc, but I'm really not sure. He told me that the only folded because he was worried about V2 -- he would have called me down heads-up.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:32 PM   #20
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by aisrael01 View Post
This is 5/5. It's an additional 5 into a pot of 40 (likely to be 50, as BB and straddle are short). I'm risking 1/200th of my stack. Obvious call pre.
What's more important is you have to play the rest of the hand out of position, you aren't closing the action, and you will inevitably will make mistakes or get outplayed. Butchering the flop should tell you that you should tighten up out of position.

I ran T8 against some ranges, limpers got top 50% and players behind any two cards.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
50%22.23% 125,80816,590
50%22.35% 126,58116,514
100%17.07% 96,32013,591
100%17.04% 96,01413,901
Tc8c21.31% 120,92915,228

This is the best case scenario, the worst case is someone raises behind you and you fold or get suckered in with roughly the same odds but for more money against better ranges without initiative.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:41 PM   #21
aisrael01
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

mdelore: with all due respect, I did not butcher the flop. x/c is a fine line against two opponents on this flop. If I hit an off-suit 7 or 9 on the turn (which will happen 12% of the time), I have the potential to win a huge pot (by x/r'ing turn). If I hit my club (which will happen 18% of the time), I will likely win a big pot.

My turn play may be debatable, but I don't agree with your assessment of the flop play. Seems like you're reaching in order to justify your "fold pre" comment.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:42 PM   #22
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Pre is fine.

Id check flop you literally have zero fold equity here, doesnt matter if your equity is good. Youíll get called almost always. Just check and evaluate, either x/c or x/r based on actions and bet sizings and how many callers.

Turn just fold dude, the board is paired and youíre no longer drawing to the nuts in any way. Your flush half the time probably wont even be good on rivers.

River is pretty bleh. Flop started 5-way and although you block 87 thereís still a good amount out there, and V1 is uncapped and has a crap ton of boats and may not even fold two pair to your strange line.

Also if you did have a straight it certainly shouldnt be a donk... you fold out other bluffs/a good amount of weak hands, and V1 should have a lot more boats than Q9 that might not even hero anyway and the other player can also have some strangely played boats as well

Imo pretty spewy hand whether it got thru or not
Nailed it here IMO.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:44 PM   #23
aisrael01
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

The point is not that 8cTc has great equity against a random hand, but that it has great post flop playability. These "fold pre" comments are laughably wrong.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:45 PM   #24
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Is it being in the SB you like so much or putting another $8 to win $35 against 4 other players?
Was this 5-5 game, you put in $5 more to win $40 in the pot with marginal hand?
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:55 PM   #25
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Re: 5/5 nl, river bluff line check

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Originally Posted by aisrael01 View Post
The point is not that 8cTc has great equity against a random hand, but that it has great post flop playability. These "fold pre" comments are laughably wrong.
I just gave you the equity and it isn't great, it's barely there if you assume you realize it all the time and nobody behind raises you. I also think you're underestimating the significance of being out of position for the entire hand 5 ways.
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