Game has been playing loose, usually straddled but not this time

V (covers) reg, capable of 3b bluffing, bluffing post, not a nit but not super loose either

H ($900) tag image

V opens 30 utg+1, folds to H otb 3b 105, V 4b 280, H calls HU

Flop 743r (560)
V 220, H calls

Turn 2 (bd c) 1000
V ai, H calls 400eff

Standard?

i might go a little bigger pre but other than that id say its standard

do we have the king?

What is villain's 4bet range? That's the whole question because postflop plays itself. If you think he has AK and/or QQ here, EZ game well played. If he's KK+ only, fold pre.

Sorry he had AA. You played fine. Stacking off pre would have been fine as well.

Well-played IMO. Not folding at any point and not 5-betting pre.

If you play anything like me, these spots are the worst because thinking Vs can range you pretty well and when they 4! a UTG open/TAG BTN 3! anyway, they're pretty much saying I have the nuts. That is assuming you haven't 3! light on the BTN much.

But you have the second nuts, and that's just poker. Reload if he has AA.

Not sure what else you're supposed to do.

You 3 bet preflop.....good.

You call the 4 bet and didn't 5-bet.....good. Going AI would be a mistake, only AA will call for 180 bb. You said V can bluff and is not a nit. So V could have other hands besides AA.

Flop, you call a 40% pot bet......good.

And once you called on the flop, you're calling the shove unless the turn is an A or a Q.

Sometimes your destined to lose a lot of money on a hand.

Jam pre or jam flop are both options. Obviously not folding.

lose all your money if hes capable of having something besides AA here

not sure he is though with given description

We have <200BB and the 2nd nuts, never folding.

I'm fine with how we played every street here. Sure, he often has AA but there's also the other KK, a handful of random bluffs, and the occasional misplayed QQ.

I'm deeply confused about how the money didn't go in preflop. Are you also flatting AA and AK? Like what's the thought process here?

It's perfectly reasonable to have *no* 5-bet range. Especially since most 5-bet ranges are AA alone.

It's fine to flat. We want to keep in his entire 4bet range.

Sure but answer the question

One thing that always frustrates me about this spot is that if we run into the top of his range we get stacked at a near 100% clip, but if he has QQ or AK, we aren't always making good money postflop. In both cases an A on the flop kills our chance of getting more money in post.

I know these bigger games are more aggressive than my usual 1/2, but this deep and without any read otherwise, I think this may be a decent fold pre spot.

I don't want to just sign off on the narrative that we have to 100% get stacked here if he has AA, because that implies that we make up for it all the times this isn't AA. I'm not convinced that this isn't AA all that often and that we make up for it when it's not.

Getting KK vs. AA sucks, and at most stack depths and spots I agree we get stacked. But 200BB deep facing an EP open and 4-bet from a good player, maybe we can dodge one and just quietly fold this pre?

I think you have to ask yourself at what depth is stacking off with KK no longer standard. I believe the depth varies and is villain specific. In the 2/5 $800 capped game I play in, it varies between 80 and 200 BB for a non straddled pot. For the V in the OP, it would be closer to the 200 than the 80.

The problem with 5-betting is that it's already such a narrow range spot that villain shouldn't be 4-bet/calling QQ/AK. He shouldn't even 4-bet those at 100% frequency. We should literally only have AA for value balanced with AKs/A5s as bluffs when we 5-bet vs. UTG full-ring so it seems like AA might just make more flatting.

Certainly agree with this.

The threshold absolutely varies with each villain+the different dynamics you have in a game. My opinion is that as a default threshold when you get deeper than 200BB, it is starting to not get "standard" anymore. Not saying i would never stackoff with KK pre deeper than that of course, but as i look back on the stackoffs ive done around 200 BB pre its quite scary how often i have been up against AA.

Sure, many people will brush it off saying ive been running bad and just hitting the very top of peoples ranges- but i dont think its that simple. Ranges seriously shrinks up when it comes to what non maniacs is willing to put into the middle for 200BB+ deep preflop.

I gave a reason that it's fine to flat, stating what OP's range is and explaining his thought process would be presumptuous.

Fair enough, I just think that if u do try and answer the question u either reach a point where u believe a logical contradiction, or u advocate for an extremely unbalanced strategy

I think this is simply a range problem though. The things to worry about are that you point out should be considerations when we estimate his range but once done, we have solved the problem. I don't play in OPs game so I don't have the benefit of population reads let alone a handle on the villain. In my game, I would fold pre without specific villain reads because 4bets are so rare.

FWIW I flat both KK and AA in this exact spot and fold everything else, if my read is villain's range is wider than KK+ when he 4gets.

Thanks all for the responses, ofc he had AA and I get stacked lol

The same V played a 4k pot shortly after squeezing huge like 250pre with 54s from the blinds. So although I don't have his ep 4bet range down pat, someone who is capable of those types of moves I assume has a 4bet frequency which is not only KK/AA