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Old 12-29-2016, 03:56 AM   #1
cicakman
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5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

So the game is 5/5/optional straddle and we're down to 4 handed at the end of the night. Dynamics and reads are hard to give completely and are always changing. I'd like to post this with simple reads and am mostly interested in the theory of it and comments on the overall line.

Hero(3700)- best player in game pool. Aggressive and spazy at times but solid.
Villain 1(1700)- nittier but capable and is aware of hero image. Winner in game.
Villain 2(1300)- mostly irrelevant but very nitty and easy to play.

Hero is sb with As8c, V2 limps 5, V1 raises 25 on button, Hero 3bets 105, both villains call.

Flop 567 rainbow, Hero bets 125, V2 folds, V1 calls.

Turn 5672 bringing flush draw. Hero checks, V1 bets 300, Hero calls.

River 56722 no flush. Hero checks, V1 bets 775 with about 400 behind, Hero calls.

Not interested in pre really. It's meh and irrelevant. But comments are welcome.

Last edited by cicakman; 12-29-2016 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:10 AM   #2
Tiltyjoker
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

What suit is your ace? What's you're other card? What suit was the 2 on the turn?

Also, I think it's highly unlikely he's trying to bluff you off an overpair after you called turn with the river being 2.
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:13 AM   #3
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

I forgot to put the hand. I had As8c and board was 5c6s7d2c2h
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:26 AM   #4
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

Pretty much the only hands that you beat that get to the river like this are are A4s/ 910s, which should be discounted as well bc they check turn x% of the time and 910 also just folds flop sometimes.

You don't give him credit for set mining you? It's the most credible and realistic range for villain here

Last edited by Tiltyjoker; 12-29-2016 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 12-29-2016, 05:04 AM   #5
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

Turn is a fold or bet.

His sizing is too large to continue.

River is an easy fold.
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:00 AM   #6
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
So the game is 5/5/optional straddle and we're down to 4 handed at the end of the night. Dynamics and reads are hard to give completely and are always changing. I'd like to post this with simple reads and am mostly interested in the theory of it and comments on the overall line.

Hero(3700)- best player in game pool. Aggressive and spazy at times but solid.
Villain 1(1700)- nittier but capable and is aware of hero image. Winner in game.
Villain 2(1300)- mostly irrelevant but very nitty and easy to play.

Hero is sb with As8c, V2 limps 5, V1 raises 25 on button, Hero 3bets 105, both villains call.

Flop 567 rainbow, Hero bets 125, V2 folds, V1 calls.

Turn 5672 bringing flush draw. Hero checks, V1 bets 300, Hero calls.

River 56722 no flush. Hero checks, V1 bets 775 with about 400 behind, Hero calls.

Not interested in pre really. It's meh and irrelevant. But comments are welcome.
i can only assume that this is some amazing hero call that worked out that you want to tell us about.

you describe yourself as the "best player in the game pool" and you want us to make an informed decision without any reads or dynamics about whats going on. Anything anyone says about the hand imo should be useless to you if everything you said in OP is true.

all that said preflop 3bet is bad imo esp without any reads.

as played easy fold river, but im guessing you made the right call since you haven't put any reads or dynamics in the hand.
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Old 12-29-2016, 06:13 PM   #7
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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all that said preflop 3bet is bad imo esp without any reads.
Huh? 4 handed with a button raise? You don't need too many in depth reads when you are raising for value....
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:50 AM   #8
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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Huh? 4 handed with a button raise? You don't need too many in depth reads when you are raising for value....
A8o is far too weak to consider it a standard value 3bet. Fold pre is standard, river is massive spew.

Villain has all the sets, some straights and almost no busted draws / aur unless he floats super wide.
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:13 AM   #9
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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Hero(3700)- best player in game pool.
Sick home game bro
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:08 AM   #10
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

He could also be a ganster and turn 88/99 into a bluff. Calling with A high has got to be lighting $ on fire
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:45 AM   #11
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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A8o is far too weak to consider it a standard value 3bet.
Hmmm, your 4 handed game must play far nittier than mine. I would say for starters any A would raise in my games, as well as most 2 Broadway hands.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:25 AM   #12
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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He could also be a ganster and turn 88/99 into a bluff. Calling with A high has got to be lighting $ on fire
I don't think he has any 1 pair hands as value or a bluff. My range isn't just over pairs.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:50 AM   #13
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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I don't think he has any 1 pair hands as value or a bluff. My range isn't just over pairs.
Just because it is not all overpairs, it mainly is only overpairs.

Sets probably bet a fair % of turns and check some % to allow aggressive players to get aggressive.

You don't have enough set combos to make up for the overpair weight. Because you're probably not checking this turn 100% with sets.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:12 AM   #14
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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Hmmm, your 4 handed game must play far nittier than mine. I would say for starters any A would raise in my games, as well as most 2 Broadway hands.
Even if thats the case what is totally possible A8o is still not a standard value 3bet out of the SB. It plays terrible and doesn't have good equity anyways.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:33 AM   #15
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

Depends on our opponents whether we should 3b more w/ a8o vs flat with it more. But it's rarely going to be bad.


Generally it's going in my 3b range more than flat.

If they are folding to a lot of 3-bets, you should definitely be doing 3-bets more, with Ax blockers, Kx, Qx, small PP and some suited connected/gappers.

It's fine to mix in deceptive 3-bets. We do it for a multitude of effects.

We win larger pots when we hit
expanding our 3b range which will change the dynamic in future play which we can properly adjust to and profit
and we can fold out hands we are behind to.

Last edited by Dochrohan; 12-30-2016 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:02 AM   #16
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

pre is light to the point of just being ridiculous lol, especially w/ CO limping in too. I guess you're super deep but even then that's a point for adding hands with better playability to your 3b range before getting to this one. This hand is just a fold pre, I think you're (vastly) overestimating your skill edge if you think otherwise.

I'd probably check this flop a lot vs 2 players because it rly doesn't hit us very hard so I'd check this hand too, our range isn't strong enough to bet 1/3 pot here and achieve anything.

AP I like the turn c/c a lot, he prob has a lot of floats after flop with that price so I think we can call with our draw + sometimes best hand. OTR this is among the worst if not the worst hand we can have so pretty easy fold, sometimes get bluffed sure but we have enough overpairs, pair+draw etc type hands we can call here with that we're not letting him print off us or anything so its fine.
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Old 12-31-2016, 03:32 PM   #17
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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Originally Posted by cicakman View Post

River 56722 no flush. Hero checks, V1 bets 775 with about 400 behind, Hero calls.
You're only ahead of A3, A4, and all V air that triple barreled. You say you're the best player in the pool. If V knows and agrees with that assessment, then it's a good spot to flat and expect a high percentage of air. If that's not the case, V sizing seems kind of like you're getting valuetowned.

I sigh call
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:08 PM   #18
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

Not so sure I like 3betting this hand - suited I don't mind it, but off this is a fold.

Why do we check call the turn? Why not just lead the turn ourselves - if he was going to raise us, why would he wait for the turn?

Even some hands he is turning into a bluff beat us. I got value owned this way yesterday when someone decided to turn pocket 2's into a bluff and I called with A high. Whole table was like WTF.

I think I like betting turn instead of check / calling. We rep JJ+ still and have equity if called.

As played I probably fold, it's just not worth it. If he is bluffing than let him have it, he will try and bluff again when you have a real hand.
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Old 12-31-2016, 05:22 PM   #19
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Re: 5/5 4 handed deep - A high call

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Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Villain 1(1700)- nittier but capable and is aware of hero image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
Hero is sb with As8c
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman View Post
I don't think he has any 1 pair hands as value or a bluff. My range isn't just over pairs.
I'm glad you posted this as there's a lot to think about, but these are all pretty big problems. If you had Ac8s you'd have a better bluff catcher.

Incoming tl:dr

First and foremost, you really need V to be a good enough player to frequently bet bet a hand like JJ for value becasue without that level of thinking (bc your range isn't exclusively OPs that would ck-c turn) I just can't give him credit for being good enough to frequently bet bet hands worse than A8 as a bluff.

So what realistic bluffs does a nittier thinking player have here on the riv? Well, again, becasue he isnt betting pairs for value on turn/riv, that really should limit his float, semibluff bet, 2/3 pot bluff frequency with, say, AQcc+/9Tcc? becasue you unfortunately block looser PF open-calls you really need him to have (Ac8c, Kc8c, Qc8c, Jc8c, Tc8c) to consider calling A8.
What about all other T8s+? again, those hands call flop always, but a nittier guy likely cks turn very frequently. Maybe he floats KTs bdfd/sd and bet bets??? (lightly blocking your OP/value range that takes this line? Really? He ain't thinking like this). Wishful thinking, but you need those hands in his range frequently enough as well.

Muddying up the waters is that he has a value range that gets wider on this riv. He is incentivized to bet KK+ now (he flat pre I'm sure sometimes) and his FHs and straights are still gonna pound away, becasue, that's what unbalanced nittier "2/5"players do to make up for all the passivity - and they get called by the fish (not you), and then the good players tilt through their skin (you).

Bottom line: The times he's bluffing he's bluffing with a better hand (that he still checks back a lot too) and he's not bluffing enough (given what you've told us) to bluff catch A high.
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