Fair points and I don't really have a problem with it per se. I found the "best player" thread a little tilting when a lot of folks were questioning 3! a tough player's CO open with AQs on the button.

Thing is they may have been correct against a typical $1-2 player (although even then it seems too passive--I think plenty of small stakes unknowns are going to open AT or KQ if folded to them in the CO). Seems like that questioning of the 3! was just distracting.

I wasn't aware the other forums were so dead.

The real question isn’t about getting CO to fold AK. The real question is how often are you beat by the other 5 players in the hand, holding a dominating draw like 65/54, and how often you can get CO to fold a hand like an overpair.

Anyway why would you want CO to fold AK. We’re ahead of AK. Question is how often is CO folding an overpair to your bet/bet/bet line. Say you go 500 on turn and 1000 on river? I don’t think I’d fold an overpair to that action. Your hand looks a lot like pair+gutty when you donk into the preflop aggressor.

Which is why the better line would have been to check/raise the flop, and put maximum pressure on CO. This line would also have happened to reveal to you that SB had a decent hand (likely dominating yours), and you could have gotten away from the hand in this case.

my problem with checking the flop is how often it gets checked through and i know i have the nut weakest hand in my range but i have so many hands that hit this board pretty hard that i think leading anything you continue with is best in this spot and i think i have the best hand on the flop a reasonable amount of the time and can use my equity to blast middle pairs off the pot

my plan was to check raise the king, but OMC put a wrench in my plan, now it just looks wierd to be check raising after just calling his micro bet, so plan is aborted. I could just call here for the 10 outer but villain can basically play perfectly, the 2 is the only out that's not transparent, so i'm short of direct odds and implied odds so i just folded, which is probably not the best of plays

i'm comfortable with the pf call and flop lead, still think it's the best play, calling pre was a mistake if i know the SB is so short and a pretty big mistake, calling 25s for 40 to win 210 i think it's a little light but not a huge mistake

I think villain has AK here almost all of the time

I was talking about the flop decision point, not the turn.

On the flop after you lead CO is gonna just call all his overpairs and maybe AK.

Just to visualize, after CO calls your donk lead he’s gonna have 16 combos of AK and 48 combos of overpairs. TBH I doubt whether CO is gonna ever call your flop bet with A-hi in a 5-way hand where several players have uncapped ranges. Very questionable read that he has any AK here.

But that’s besides the point. You’re ahead of AK. Which is why it’s strange that you’re saying that you want CO to fold AK. Of course if CO folds AK we’re isolating ourselves against a range of overpairs and that’s about it. We definitely want CO to call with his Ace highs so that his range isn’t so freaking strong when he calls. Also, AK isn’t getting proper odds to call to hit his 6-outer. So we definitely want the call.

What was your plan in this hand to continue if CO called flop and SB folded, and you’re isolated against a range of {77-AA,AK} holding bottom pair and a gutshot? Check turn and concede the pot? Go for the triple barrel and pray that CO has a fold button?

I’d much prefer the check-raise flop because it generates some fold equity on future streets against 88-JJ that are gonna have a tough time holding on. These overpairs are just gonna call down when you go bet/bet/bet unless you use some obscene late street sizings.

By the time it's to CO, it's at most three-handed. Depending on his assessment about OP/BB's exploitable tendencies here, CO can reasonably expect AK to be a profitable float with the intention of barreling later.

I mean BB here is defending multiway with 52s and donking with bottom pair + draws (I don't hate the latter btw), so his range is pretty wide. Virtually everything is an overcard to the board, so AK in position should enjoy some fold equity and some draw equity at the overcards.

Again, though, that's only if he's identified exploitable tendencies.


Cleaning up the equity from AK seems reasonably valuable for us, especially if we might get outplayed OOP. In other situations I might prefer that to getting value from unimproved AK. For our hand on this board I agree we'd rather have a call.

Unless I'm misreading the hand, there are only three players with cards by the time action reaches CO. The SB has checked so there's no reason to put him on anything other than a loose preflop range. I don't get how your term "isolating" makes any sense from Hero's perspective, and I also don't get how it makes any sense by the time action reaches the CO, so I can't tell which one you mean here.

Hero somewhat reasonably seems to be betting for value with pair + gutshot + BDFD, plus barreling equity by overrepping a hand, plus thinning the field on an extremely dynamic board where most turn cards will make his hand very hard to play multiway OOP. I think betting is fine.

XR in a 4-way pot isn't great unless we have a read that the PFR cbets without regard to number of opponents.

I had preflop mixed up, I thought BTN was in the hand. You’re right, there is just one other player left in the hand. From COs perspective he probably wants to float with good Ace-highs in addition to all his overpairs and any A6/65/A4/A2. I don’t know whether live players are actually continuing this light — some players will shake their head and say “I always miss with AK” and fold 100%. Some players will get sticky with AK on the flop but then never turn it into a bluff on later streets. A more talented player might float with AK and then use it to bluff later streets when checked to.



I’d rather have a call if the CO is gonna play AK passively on later streets, but I’d probably rather have a fold if the CO is ever gonna turn the hand into a bluff.

Maybe “isolating” is the wrong word. I mean it in the sense of how we’re facing COs continuing range which is going to be much stronger than his preflop range.

I don’t see this board as a particularly great one for our range (compared to the rest of the field) so, in theory I don’t think we’re supposed to have a leading range. I choose to not have a lead here in 5/T because I don’t lead boards 5-ways unless they board gives me a significant advantage.

That said, I can see playing a lead here as an exploitative adjustment. Particularly if we think the field will underdefend to a donk lead. Our play would then be a reaction to the fact that CO and SB probably aren’t defending as wide as they should be. If that’s true then a donk lead is printing money due to fold equity on the flop.

But this has effects on later streets. If CO isn’t defending very wide then he will reach turn with a fairly strong range, like overpairs, A6, A4, A2, 65,54, sets. Maybe AK. I don’t believe that a triple barrel against that range is going to get much fold equity, so I would slow down on the turn — definitely not contemplating a check/raise on a K like OP stated.

we have the best hand a lot, maybe 30% of the time we have out-flopped the table, i.e. it's a much higher % that most people think

here is the problem tho

the strongest range on that flop is actually the small blind who's 6xs are better than my hand and dominate it, having the SB short is a disaster, i just didn't know he was short, so i think it's a no bet if i know he's short, so yeah with a short small blind it's not good, but if he's deep his 77 sucks vs this field

imo Ol man folded an overpair like 77 here, so i'm definitely not betting if 77 is committed to the pot but all the middle pairs are kinda ****ed with my lead even if they have that but they have draws that missed the flop and can't continue a ton

as for the hand i think calling is not nearly as good as fold or raise, raise probably gets the job done here and you can still just check your pair of 2s if he calls, so i think 1100 raise does its job here or fold, call kinda sucks because you can only pray for a 2, you can't bluff the river

Probably CO has the most direct value with 22--AA all in range. He’s probably got 60 combos of overpairs/sets out of a range of 400 combos. Plus his 65s/54s hands have decent equity facing aggression. That’s 15% strong value that will easily continue or bet itself on the flop.

Second strongest range on that flop is maybe SB, because he has all of small pairs 22-66 given his flat preflop. He has 9 combos of sets and 18 combos of overpairs (77-99) assuming TT is 3bet preflop (probably is at this stack depth).

You probably have the weakest range on this board, out of all players, because you have the widest preflop range. If you’re playing 52s, I assume you’re also playing Q5s,Q7s, Q8o, A7o, etc, which are all whiffs. You just don’t have a ton of good hands on this board, which is why in theory you should be checking a lot from OOP.

Let’s forget SB for the moment, since he’s an irrelevant short stack from everyone’s perspective. My reaction (from COs perspective) to seeing a flop donk bet followed by turn check-raise would be that my opponent is clicking buttons, making random weird plays. It’s such a strange line after all. I’d never fold a hand as strong as AK to this weird line.

If you’re capable enough to mix in value in this line, good on you. But my gut reaction as CO would be this looks like BS and I’m just pressing call on all runnouts except a river 3/5.

What the... ?

All SB did was call preflop and check the flop. Why on earth would you put him on a six?

Either I'm misunderstanding or this is a really well crafted series of troll threads.

not a single chance i'm flatting any of those hands pre-flop, all the hands you mentioned as calling candidates have pretty bad RIO and are too hard to play post flop,most of the better suited low connectors are blocked, theres just about 4 combos left to be had

I’d never fold a hand as strong as AK to this weird line.[/B]

it's even weirder now that the SB microbet and i didn't raise, i think fold is safe for that reason, a lot of people just aren't going to fold AK here, it's confusing and we love the call button when we are confused, so yeah i think it's an ok and interesting play, i actually wish i had tried it because it seems like a decent semi bluff try, but looking from villains perspective i don't think i want to lay down with the incomplete FD on board, if he unblocks the Ac i think a lot of people are calling all day

I wouldn't even talk about ranges here, this is a street poker hand. So, just raise turn to a size you were going to bet anyway. You have 2p/straights/sets/combos/33/55 to very reasonably rep and it just creates a very difficult continue for COs OPs/any Kx that continued flop. He prob has pair+hearts/SC/sets that cont, but most everything else that paired up/floated should fold, so that's good.
Once you raise turn, you aren't going to be facing a re-raise often, and for the most part you'll just be handing the old man in the SB some free cash. If IP calls, you should be able to bet again on any non-heart/4/6 and win the side pot unimp.

First thanks for a good reply. I'm just isolating part of it.

So, well, yes. exploitative play should be about 95% of what we consider and GTO maybe 5%. But even so, I'm not sure GTO would be that divergent here.

Shouldn't the hand theoretically play more "honest" as it gets more multiway? As mentioned one reason is because you shouldn't expect any particular opponent behind you to bet here unless you're behind. Another is that bluffs are much less likely to succeed, and at equilibrium 4 players collectively shoulder the burden of keeping the 5th honest.

Therefore, statements like, "in theory I don’t think we’re supposed to have a leading range," seem tailored to a 2- or 3-way pot against unexploitable play, not 5-way. Likewise (later):

On this flop, against excellent hand readers, this will matter a bit, e.g. 2nd limper might consider BB's range if pondering leading with a middling hand like a four. It won't matter anywhere near as much as it would HU or 3w. (No huge insight there.)

In fairness you were also carrying this discussion through to the turn play, and HU vs a good opponent obviously GTO matters more. However, at this point everything in the hand has been so cattywampus that GTO's practical value is limited. Bad preflop call, 5-way action, etc. -- you might play 1000 hours with this opponent and not get in another spot that's all that comparable, let alone enough sample for him to judge frequencies.

(Not to assume CO is good since that's not stated; just that he would need to be observant for our weak range to matter here.)

---

In fairness I'm way out of my league theorizing re: GTO in 5-way pots so if I'm wrong in anything above, all ears.

(Aside: Why short-stacking can be profitable... but OK, ignoring him.)
That makes me feel validated for clicking weird buttons to confuse good opponents.

I suspect many live unknows really will fold TPTK to an unknown (to them) taking a weird and very aggressive line. I would. With a true XR Hero would be unmistakably declaring that he can beat a one-pair hand, specifically, "Aha! I tricked you because you thought I hated that king, but I really love my hand so much I hope you like that king and will pay me off!" AK is just a pretty bluff-catcher now, so the usual factors of bluff catching on the turn apply: pot odds, observed barreling tendencies on the river, and other reads.

Not sure if you were really talking about that hypothetical where SB checks, since you said XR.

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As played after CO raises, Hero's considering a weird backraise, much more likely to get called. Maybe that's what your comment was referring to as pushing buttons. But we can't really ignore SB because we have to beat his hand for all the money in the middle. Generally I'd assume an underbet range is weak kings, heart draws, and maybe an occasional straight draw. But here his stack size and the remaining round to play weights it heavily toward the draws. Is he really going to sweeten the pot then fold the river with a weak TP? No, but he'd like to see the river card cheap and then fold his misses.

Against that range we probably do want to raise to knock CO out and draw on the river/show down. But his miniscule underbet has really messed up our planning.

Once we decline to raise and it comes back to us, just dump it. Two players have something they like (even the draw taints our outs badly) and we're just spewing money.

believe me it's your understanding of things
i put him on 77 and the other guy on AK and i bet i'm right

i'm sorry you can't follow the discussion, please read lower stakes threads

the hand doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is how often people are going to fold AK to a shove in this spot, who cares what we actually have if he folds?

I wish i had raised the OMC, but he's 100% got me beat you know. this guy has 6x or 77 that tuck tailed and ran. other things i didn't notice because he's sitting right next to me: he's wearing rags and is super poor, so maybe i should have raised him as a donation, because he has 22 beat but can't beat the king

i know it's such an odd line but he just folded and i think i have only 2 choices on the turn fold or raise

like i couldnt raise OM because i never have him beat, like, never, and he's like, never folding to my raise, like never, so he folded because he and i put villain on the same hand AK

Just raising to iso and realize against 77 or whatever. I didn’t math it out but that seems like the best thing to do as a continue. I mean, if it isn’t then it’s prob just a fold bc calling seems bad.

This isn’t one of those ‘you can’t raise bc now you’re just putting more money in w a hand you shouldn’t have anyway - compounding mistakes’ spots either. You’re here w this equity and at least one of the cards is part of a combo you ‘should’ have, so play it as well as you can.

and what's even worse is if he calls then the money goes into a side pot and no bluffing after that so the king coming up....i just figured that hit his range too hard and if he bets and the SB folds i can consider a check raise, then all of a sudden a micro bet and if OM calls i can see a river in a protected pot, get my 10 outer for free as i close the action in a protected pot, i can easily fold if he bets the river and can easily value bet the river too play it totally straightforward

yeah i was pretty frustrated with the OM but he took his 110 off the table...didn't even play his button...wierd...but very cool hand

so the old man prolly lost me money here i think, too fishy to raise now, it wouldnt make sense

It's not fishy at all. You have plenty of incentive to create a side pot w 53 and sets.

Maybe 5/10 plays different from 1/3 & 2/5, I don't know. But a hand like 52s is for image creation and/or exploitive play and is almost always played in position.

It sounds to me like you spent so long to get in the game, you were going to play just about any hand you were dealt.

Why is this in low stakes?

Cool troll. 9/10 for the thread as a whole.

Anyone reading this probably already knows but just in case: You don't do hand reading by picking one hand for your opponent to have, or even something improbably narrow. Checked the flop into 4 opponents didn't suddenly narrow SB's range from "Anything he would call with pre" to "77 or maybe a six."

It’s probably true that SB has the strongest flop range of any player because SB has the tightest preflop range of all players when he cold calls the open with 3 players left to act. His range should be fairly concentrated on good suited broadways, and pps like 22-99, after he cold calls the open. He shouldn’t have too many 6x. Maybe just A6s. Of all players probably SB has the highest concentration of pair or better in range on this flop.

After the flop action and turn lead by SB, I think we basically can narrow SBs range to 33,55, 77-99, and A6s. He probably just open jams with all sets. Whatever it is that he folded, I don’t see how we can pin him on an exact hand like 77.

TBH the discussion in this thread has been pretty useful for me—I don’t hate the idea of leading flop with pair+gutter as much as I presented earlier. Against opponents who are reasonably aware in multi-way pots and shouldn’t be betting flop too light, there are merits to developing a leading range on this board.

I still don’t like the idea of call-raising the Kx turn. Opponent is representing AK/AA/KK and that’s it (he can’t have any bluffs because SB looks to be pot committed). I don’t think there’s much money to be made in live poker by trying to get opponents to fold TPTK. Especially when we take a weird line like lead flop, call-raise turn, it’s gonna make the CO suspicious. Even a tight player willl be too curious to see our hand after we take a weird line IMO.

well i am telling everyone in the poker room to come here for advice because i can't teach them. It's like teaching people calculus when they don't know trigonometry

the reason i have to say i'm the best right now is because a lot of you are just giving disinformation which really bad for the game and guess what, is there any place people can go online for real discussion? you can pay a coach for disinformation I guess but I can't take money from a losing player for coaching because i can't make them good, they have to do it themselves, some idiot "proving" i'm lying because of a typo isn't going to save this sinking ship that happens to be the only place to go for free poker advice

The SB was an extreme outlier in the hand. but lets say he's stacked up and does a normal check, I"m checking the king to the OR, if he bets, I'm slamming if the SB folds and calling if he calls. This is a very worrisome board in a 5 way pot to the BB i just have too many value hands to slam, 1 pair hands aren't good enough most of the time, i wonder if it's better to jam a rainbow board so he doesn't call vs a flush draw

the bet threw me off guard but if i had it back i would have raised to 260

but this is interesting because AK and 77 were the hands i think, who knows, but that's the hands that flashed in my head and it's interesting that our hand is actually better with its FE and 20% equity and we can run it twice when called (if we want)