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5/10 River decision with backdoor flush 5/10 River decision with backdoor flush

08-21-2018 , 02:03 AM
5/10, 2200 eff

Villain is young Asian pro, no real history with him.

AJ in UTG1 open to 35
Villain in MP2 raise to 160, I call

Flop (335): 833
I check, V bet 125, I call

Turn (585): K
I check, V bet 400, I call

River (1385): 2
Hero?
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:18 AM
As played I think you should lead river as he's going to check back a lot of hands that would probably call a river bet. And his range seems pretty weighted towards those types of hands rather than bluffs.

I dislike the flop call unless you're willing to CR some turns and I think this one is an ok one to do so.
If you're going to play flops like this I dislike the call of the 3 bet pf.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:20 AM
I know people hate when you start with 'fold pre' but I think we should. His range most likely crushes AJh and with no reads this is a lot of money to be committing OOP.

Once we call I guess call flop and turn is OK but the problem (or at least, something that's interesting) is that he doesn't slow down when that king comes. To me that polarizes his range to air or nutted hands and maybe a AA, AK. This leads me to think C/c is probably the play even tho I hate to do it as strong as we are. This gives him a chance to bluff and also protects us some when he shows up with the goods.

I just don't really see him having 99-JJ too often here, so aside from AK and AA which we block there aren't really any value hands we beat.

That's my take, anyway.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:24 AM
He can def have 99-QQ on the turn here. Post these hands from Villain's perspective and you're going to get a majority advocating a turn bet.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:25 AM
I think check/call is too nitty you only lose to KK I also think there are bluffs he will triple barrel to represent backdoor heats so I’m going for CRAI here
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:37 AM
4b/f or fold pre to 3b. As played c/c again.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:41 AM
When he makes it 4.5x i thinks it's fine to just fold this pre when oop. I probably call up till 3.5x.

Postflop looks ok. Now bet ~900 (and throw up in your mouth when villain shoves).
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 03:21 AM
Lead the river, villain has too many hands that checkback that will sometimes call.

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5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 03:36 AM
Leading is dumb, fails at basic hand reading, and is unbalanced. You have to check. You rep TT-QQ perfectly. He value bets AK, AA if he's a pro, and continues many of his bluffs also. He should continue A LOT of his bluffs because he has TPTK and better way more than you do.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
As played I think you should lead river as he's going to check back a lot of hands that would probably call a river bet. And his range seems pretty weighted towards those types of hands rather than bluffs.

I dislike the flop call unless you're willing to CR some turns and I think this one is an ok one to do so.
If you're going to play flops like this I dislike the call of the 3 bet pf.
I had a pretty aggro image before this hand due to a good run of cards, so it’s possible he’s 3b me with a wider range than he would vs an unknown EP open. AJhh is in the middleish part of my open range so I think it’s fine to defend here given the dynamic of this game and fact that villain is young Asian dude.

On the flop, vs a 1/3rd PSB we have to defend 75% of our range. On this board having 2 overs and the nut BDFD it’s a mandatory call vs his sizing. Like I mentioned he’s making this Cbet with 100% of his 3b range.

On the turn, I thought about CR’ing here, but I rep pretty thin value here. We only really have 88. I’m folding 33 pre for that sizing, 4betting KK OOP. It doesn’t make sense to raise AK/KQ as he has a lot of worse Kx I would be folding out. I think a good thinking player would be calling me down with any pair if I raise/jam turn.

Villains range should be pretty wide OTR. With the flop sizing and that board texture he’s betting his whole range. K is a great card for him to fire again. Do we not think he will value bet all AA/AK/KQ? Why do we think he’s not weighted towards bluff here?
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 10:29 AM
I'm surprised people are thinking he has mostly bluffs. I don't buy it. He's 3 betting an UTG+1 open to a fairly large sizing from MP.

I'm thinking 88+, ATs+, KQs.

So let's say he gets to to the river with this range after hero has called twice. You really think he's firing a third barrel with his air here(which is a small part of his range). I don't think so.

I think going for CR is ok, but not because I think villain has many bluffs he will fire. I still prefer a lead though because I think we get more money from the hands he would check back and AA, AK, KQ are a smaller part of his range and you block 2 of those hands anyways. I don't like going for a line that targets the smallest part of villlain's range.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 10:42 AM
I think Hero should bet for Value on River. Play has been pretty ABC.
Hero Standard Bet Pre w/ a top ten hand. Villian three-bets against what he might perceive as a loose aggro.
Flop Hero Checks. Villian makes standard C-Bet.
Turn Hero Checks. Villian fires another barrel in position against hero who twice checked.
Heart on River Scare Card. Hero should lead out.

How often should Villian have KK or 88. More likely AA or AK.
If your read is that Villian is only calling with a better hand then I would lean to check-calling the river.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:06 AM
Are any of you ever leading this river card without a flush? If you have a river bluff lead range then fine lead but otherwise you are so unbalanced here I think he may fold a hand as strong as AK if he really is a pro. Furthermore he should definitely go for 3 barrels with AK and AA which may call off a CRAI because he’s going to have good odds if he bets any reasonable size
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by megamen70
Are any of you ever leading this river card without a flush? If you have a river bluff lead range then fine lead but otherwise you are so unbalanced here I think he may fold a hand as strong as AK if he really is a pro. Furthermore he should definitely go for 3 barrels with AK and AA which may call off a CRAI because he’s going to have good odds if he bets any reasonable size
Villain will fold AK to a river lead because it looks too strong, but will stack off to a CRAI? Interesting line of thought.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 12:10 PM
what hands would a live player c/c twice and lead river in this spot that is behind AK? in what world is that river a scare card for his range?

Villain is repping a hand he wants to go for three streets with his line really plausible, he´s not betting turn to c/b river with the range he is repping. keep his bluffs in, keep his valuebets in.
Leading might just lead to him rolling his eyes and folding AK face up.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 01:04 PM
Not a fan of this cold call out of position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese
Leading is dumb, fails at basic hand reading, and is unbalanced. You have to check. You rep TT-QQ perfectly. He value bets AK, AA if he's a pro, and continues many of his bluffs also. He should continue A LOT of his bluffs because he has TPTK and better way more than you do.
I agree with this, it's really dumb to take away his opportunity to bluff here.

Edit: I see you opened and defended the 3b. It's ok but I'd fold more often than not. It's a decent hand to put in a cheeky 4b if you're so inclined.

Last edited by mdelore; 08-21-2018 at 01:12 PM. Reason: read hand wrong
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 01:54 PM
Btw, I think every street was misplayed.

Pre: Fold. AJs is not in the top 30% of your range from EP (shouldn't be anyway), and you're oop facing a massive sized raise from MP.

Flop: Fold. It's a small bet, but his range beats you badly. J and A are not necessarily good cards for you.

Turn: Fold. Your price is bad and basically you can only win when you flush. Even if he happens to be barreling 76s or whatever ott, I doubt he will check back 7 high otr when you both brick.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
I'm surprised people are thinking he has mostly bluffs. I don't buy it. He's 3 betting an UTG+1 open to a fairly large sizing from MP.

I'm thinking 88+, ATs+, KQs.

So let's say he gets to to the river with this range after hero has called twice. You really think he's firing a third barrel with his air here(which is a small part of his range). I don't think so.

I think going for CR is ok, but not because I think villain has many bluffs he will fire. I still prefer a lead though because I think we get more money from the hands he would check back and AA, AK, KQ are a smaller part of his range and you block 2 of those hands anyways. I don't like going for a line that targets the smallest part of villlain's range.
Considering he's a pro, I doubt his 3b range is that unbalanced. I was thinking more likely a polarized range of TT+, AQ/AK, KQs, A2-A5s, and probably a few combos of suited connectors - say 54s and 65s. AJs has to be around 40-45% against that range. If anything his slightly larger sizing predisposes him towards bluffs.

Why don't you think he's firing with air on the river? He has no showdown value and he can easily rep a Kx type hand with a triple barrel to fold out my 99-QQ. At the very least he's firing all QX and TX type hands IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund
what hands would a live player c/c twice and lead river in this spot that is behind AK? in what world is that river a scare card for his range?

Villain is repping a hand he wants to go for three streets with his line really plausible, he´s not betting turn to c/b river with the range he is repping. keep his bluffs in, keep his valuebets in.
Leading might just lead to him rolling his eyes and folding AK face up.
In theory, I can lead as a bluff on the river with all AX hands, but I don't know how profitable it would be to call the turn bet with minimal equity on this particular runout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore
Not a fan of this cold call out of position.



I agree with this, it's really dumb to take away his opportunity to bluff here.

Edit: I see you opened and defended the 3b. It's ok but I'd fold more often than not. It's a decent hand to put in a cheeky 4b if you're so inclined.
Considering my image I was less inclined to 4b here as I think I have less FE than usual. The fact that I'm suited adds to the playability postflop as well. Even 4b bluffing all offsuit AQ/AJ/AT is too unbalanced towards bluffs IMO. People just aren't 3b/folding all that much in live poker from what I've noticed.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:09 PM
Agree with allthecheese in this thread
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wait
Agree with allthecheese in this thread
Can't believe it but I agree with both of these guys too.

What is your play if the river isn't a heart? Not that I would ever get there with this hand.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:47 PM
Results?
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 02:54 PM
Cheese is winning the thread, nicely said on all streets
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakEvenAt1-3
Why don't you think he's firing with air on the river?.
Because if he's a pro I imagine he has a brain.

You called a 3 bet pre, flop and turn. River doesn't change much so if I have air this is like a super obvious situation to give up.

Most people would recognize this is a ******ed spot to bluff.
But people seem pretty optomistic for some reason that villain will auto fire all bluffs here so I guess they don't think villain is that sophisticated which could be quite reasonable.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic
Because if he's a pro I imagine he has a brain.

You called a 3 bet pre, flop and turn. River doesn't change much so if I have air this is like a super obvious situation to give up.

Most people would recognize this is a ******ed spot to bluff.
But people seem pretty optomistic for some reason that villain will auto fire all bluffs here so I guess they don't think villain is that sophisticated which could be quite reasonable.
lol @ this being a ******ed spot to bluff. Please get a clue.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote
08-21-2018 , 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese
lol @ this being a ******ed spot to bluff. Please get a clue.
So it's a good spot? Why? And why are you always so angry at people who disagree with you? I feel I have some clue as I've made considerable money in this game. Funny that if we were in person I doubt you'd be so bold internet tough guy.
5/10 River decision with backdoor flush Quote

      
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