5/10NL

BTN: (€1800) - Hero, raising a lot from LP, have been BTN 2x-2.5x, trying to create a meta with BB by raising different sizes with a relatively mixed range.

SB: (€800) weak/tight reg folds too much pre-flop and tries to nut peddle, probably a small loser in the game

V1-BB€2000) Reg who plays a little more than a standard style of poker understands ranges, capable of 3 betting wide, have seen him bluffed in limped pots IP when it seems very fine to do so, picked off a couple times in small pots vs fishes, winning in the game, in for €1000. Has commented on my raising a lot in LP to a guy on his left, don't think he meant for me to hear but he motioned with his hands towards my direction while talking. Probably a decent winner in the game as I don't really see any crazy mistakes vs the fish. He is not really one to battle regs but he's no nit vs regs either. Seen him 3b ATo vs a LP open out of the BB before vs another reg.

Folds to Hero on BTN, Hero w/ KJmakes it €20, SB folds BB makes it €65. Hero calls.

Flop (€135) K8K

V bets €100 Hero calls.

Turn (€335) 3

Villain checks Hero checks

River (€335) 5

Villain checks Hero bets €250 Villain Raises to €1200 Hero?


I'm going to put my line of thinking in the spoiler, because I don't want to sway anyone from grunching and thinking otherwise, I'd like to get authentic replies before my ideas are inputted.

What do you think his range is on the river? 1010+, K10s+, A8s ?

I wish you didn't say your hand.

Nuts or nothing. Any lower than 5/T and I would almost snap fold here.

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OP... would you call if V bet turn, bet river?

How old is he
How old are you (range is fine)

What was his timing on:
Pre 3b
Flop cbet
Turn check
River check

What is the widest hand you've seen him 3b

I think river sizing could have been smaller to avoid this exact spot (1/3 - 1/2 pot), but I agree with tibrida in that it's a marginal spot. This might be a slight call as we'd expect a flop c-bet w/ almost his entire range & that's the same range V has OTR. Turn and River don't do much to help either of your ranges & if he thinks you'd float wide it makes it that much easier for him to bluff here, especially with the turn check. TBH as I was reading the HH I figured you'd want to check river just to show your cards/peak at his. Having said all that, he could also have us crushed & wants his value shove to look like a bluff. Can't fault you for either action, but having the luxury of not commiting my own $, I'd lean a sigh (hero..?) call.

Got to think some of those PPs check flop to keep my range wide and extract 2 streets of value vs worse.

A8s shows up some % here on river, but got to think a lot of this is c/c, I can see it being a bluff here some % if he puts me on a bigger pair. I'd say you then can widen his river range prior to the c/r to what you would believe his 3b range would be, and got to figure he c-bets a good % of his bluffs here.

Our V is probably similar age.

Often perceived as earlier 30s, I'm in my beginning of late 20s.

Nothing notable in terms of speed, was standard timing if I remember.
C-bet was instant.
Turn check was instant.
River was delayed maybe a few seconds.

Other than seeing him show down ATo, 66? LP weak reg raised, he 3-bets on BTN, reg calls.

6Axxx board and other reg had AKs, went bet-bet-bet. This was possibly the very first session I ever played with him.

Forgot to quote you.

Yes, I'm calling a double barrel here. I'd have to really consider a triple barrel on this board. People usually don't have the balls to triple barrel a paired board.

Going to have to put on my big boy pants and really go to work. Depends on the run out, on this run out, it would be a better call than a high card runout, but I think you'd have to fold.

He 3bet the 66?

Very very odd that his cbet and checks were instant. How about his x/r timing?

Yes the 66

similar to river check, slightly longer.


For people reading, this is something you should be paying attention to vs Villains in game, especially ones you play a lot of hours with. You can gain a lot of free information just by staying focused. What those timing decisions mean can vary player to player and are not 100% certain but, sometimes they are favorable to one side of the bluff/value spectrum and that you can exploit.

I haven't read many comments but I like the turn check back and because of that I think you have to call River

In this situation button vs blind with a pretty dry board on the turn and not much aggression from you I think it's a good spot for a turn check back, in position

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This seems like a pretty good way for villain to play AK/88. He gets max value from our weaker kx hands and our rare bluffs. He doesnt expect us to pay off 2 streets very often with our mid pair hands so he really isnt giving up much value there to make this play. I think we can expect a solid Villain to play AK/88 this way a fair amount of the time.

I don't think he bluffs at this very often if ever because of the strength of our range when we bet this river.

We have showdown value at this river nearly every time we get here. When we bet, we are either value betting kq,kj,kt, AA/QQ that was not 4 bet pre(rare), or we decided to turn one of our hands with showdown value into a bluff (seems unlikely).A good chunk of this range is Kx and bluffing into it does not seem like a good idea.

I think he shows up with AK/88 here often enough that we can fold.

In game, i probably would have called.

Snapping. 20 pre seems terrible but whatever

Just bet the turn, nothing standard whatsoever about checking it back if he's a relatively straightforward guy.

It really looks like you have 99-QQ and your river bet looks valuey since V pretty much can't have a K by checking two streets, so it looks like V knows this and is trying to bluff you off those hands. The only hands you're worried about are AK/88, and once you call the flop bet you clearly have 99+ that he would just go for three streets of value against.

His river c/r bomb looks exactly like he wants a fold. It doesn't really look like you have a K, so therefore his huge bet will get a fold from QQ-99.

if there's such a thing as WIFOM in poker this is it and you're getting more than 1:1

shrug and call?

I don't think there's too much deep analysis to be had here but I'm barfing in your spot.

super agreed.

Even he had 55? Screw ranges, it's always 55 when I'm in the hand vs villain.



Seriously though, 2/5 I'm running for the hills. Looking forward to OP thought process on river. (Just read it,didn't see spoiler)

"As for turn, I think it's a really super standard check back. On river, I size a bit large because he doesn't really have much, but I think we can maybe level some Ax hands, seems extremely doubtful, underpairs call I would believe. So I go for bigger sizing expecting a lot of folds, but when he calls, he's just getting murdered for it."

Agree 100%

I think when you check back the turn you set this up for villain to take a shot, turn any pair into a bluff. I'm assuming he thinks/knows you're opening the button super wide and likely calling his 3 bet ip with most of it.

I'd like calling more if he lead the flop honestly, but I still think you have to call this. What does he expect you to call the extra ~1K with here after you check back turn?

His 3b of your 2x open (why?), plus his way too big flop bet (100->120?), prob widens both perceived ranges a notch heading to the turn-he must know this. With that, you have a clearer path to value on the turn by having more hands that want to bet for value/protection/semibluff when the bdfd arrives and the 8 otf isnt a heart and as a result you get more calls than you normally might.

The notion of this being a "standard" ck back the turn with your whole range for value just goes right out the window when you bomb river. You are just so infrequently going to be betting the river (particularly hearts and/or an overcard to middle pair) if given the chance to showdown a good 1p hand that you checked turn with.

So when you ck turn, then bet 250->325 on the riv, your "standard" line just looks like a face-up standard Kx underrep. Yea, you wanna say you have some bluffs and he's rebluffing and everyone is a masterclass range reader, but by the time you add it all up, he's more likely to be putting 1200 in otr with FHs more often than any airball that he easily could have just bet turn with in the first place. Maybe he has some wacko 3b pre becasue of your 2x open (again that just cannot be standard for your live 5T game can it?) with 33,55 that got there and have a very easy ck-r for value.

I'll try to reply in a bit to everyone but regards the 2x-2.5x raise sizes on BTN.

I think it's totally fine, when you're mixing raise sizes as an method to meta players who are good/thinking.

But, the main reasoning I'm doing those small sizes is, I'm opening 60-70% buttons. Maybe even wider, I can see myself playing much wider if people are not adjusting.

I think it's totally fine and I don't see any arguments on why, so if you want to argue it, I'm fine with that.

I don't understand why you think river is a bet-call. What value hands that you beat does V check to you unconcerned that the river checks through? K9/KT? Which he then turns into a bluff? Unlikely.

Inclined to agree. This looks bluffy. He knows you're only going to be calling when you're so heavily polarized that you MUST fold out everything that isn't the near nuts. This is why I don't think this is a value bet disguised as a bluff.

Besides, I doubt villain would give you enough credit to see past this. Calling here would be elite level.

Villain did lead the flop.

FWIW as (I'm guessing you realized) this is what I was alluding to with my questions. If the question was "what value hands do you put villain on" my answer would be 55. It's really the only value hand that makes sense, especially with timing.

I'm not sure his Kx bets flop, esp. for that sizing (which is bad btw no matter what he has), and I'm not sure it snap checks turn, and snap checks river after a turn check through. He's really gotta be clicking some buttons to have AK here.

All of that said, I don't know if I've ever seen a river x/r be a bluff in live poker. Excluding extremely obvious bad lag drunk whales. I have a pretty hard and fast rule to fold everything but quads to a river x/r. This hand, with his timing, would make me want to break the rule. But it's really close.

RE: sizing pre

You will see this sizing used at like 50NL+ and it's because sb/bb 3betting is so prevalent. In live poker however, it's not, and I think more important than sizing down for 3betting protection is winning the pot pre, bc you avoid rake. IIRC snowie came to this same conclusion.

RE: turn betting/checking

It depends on villains range and slightly less so how we want to play our range. There's quite a few villains I would half pot the turn.