Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-03-2018, 06:18 PM   #1
KT_Purple
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 553
5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

V1 and I are known to be the loosest players at the table and, consequently, we have been in a lot of hands against each other. V2 is probably the best player or one of the best in the room. He is a classic TAG who can be a total nightmare to play against because he can and will 3b/b/b/b with anything from.soup to nuts. I've played with him as much as V1 but can't remember many showdowns against him because he doesn't check down much and seems to read ppl extremely well. He's super nice off the table but seems downright mean when you're in a hand with him.

Hero has had a rough time getting traction at this table but sits at his starting stack of 2500 after a few hours of play, V1 and V2 cover

Hero dealt T T UTG raises to 30, folds to V1 (3300) who makes it 95

CO (1400) and button (4k) flat, V2 (covers all) makes it 425 from the SB and the BB folds
KT_Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2018, 06:33 PM   #2
bigdaddycope
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 167
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

This is a pretty trivial fold...

Yeah obviously V2 may realize this is a cool spot for a lighter cold 4b. However, our hands are tied and we don't get to do anything but fold TT in this spot.
bigdaddycope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2018, 06:37 PM   #3
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 5,836
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

How is this hard? Just fold bruh. Are you sometimes folding the best hand? Of course. But this is not a time to pick TT and just stack off 250bb.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2018, 06:46 PM   #4
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddycope View Post
This is a pretty trivial fold...

Yeah obviously V2 may realize this is a cool spot for a lighter cold 4b. However, our hands are tied and we don't get to do anything but fold TT in this spot.
What? Why are we folding? we should be snap shoving 1010 here given the action. We have a top 5% hand and SB can be making a move with A2s-A5s because it looks so strong to cold 4b a 3-bet vs an UTG open.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2018, 06:57 PM   #5
bigdaddycope
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 167
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
What? Why are we folding? we should be snap shoving 1010 here given the action. We have a top 5% hand and SB can be making a move with A2s-A5s because it looks so strong to cold 4b a 3-bet vs an UTG open.
bigdaddycope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2018, 07:13 PM   #6
DrChesspain
Pooh-Bah
 
DrChesspain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,998
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

In addition to the killer on our left making a super strong 4b, we still have 3 players left to act, each of whom either 3-bet or cold-called a 3-bet.

Unless all of the Villains are spazzing in unison, I'm thinking that TT is smoked here.
DrChesspain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2018, 07:21 PM   #7
novice123
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 135
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

I think a fold is in order here. The supposed best player on the table just 4bet from sb, with three others behind him. calling here would be really bad i think, so you're either folding or shoving the remainder of your 2500.
novice123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2018, 04:22 PM   #8
RottPhiler
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 238
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Fold, ainec.
RottPhiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2018, 06:14 PM   #9
Playbig2000
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Playbig2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,461
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

I don't know how someone who can 3bet/b/b/b with anything from soup to nuts and choose that 4bet sizing to be the best player in the room (especially if you can't remember any of his showdowns) but it's still a fold with a med PP, a strong UTG opening range and already a 3bet against that range.
Playbig2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2018, 07:53 PM   #10
KT_Purple
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 553
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
I don't know how someone who can 3bet/b/b/b with anything from soup to nuts and choose that 4bet sizing to be the best player in the room (especially if you can't remember any of his showdowns) but it's still a fold with a med PP, a strong UTG opening range and already a 3bet against that range.
This is actually the first thing that struck me. The sizing is awkward. Also, villain is looking down the table away from me as if im.not even in the hand.

V1s sizing is wired too. He usually goes 105 and I read this sizing as weak

Also, there is no reason to totally respect my raises. Im a weekend player and all the regs know i have some crap hands in my opening range 250bb deep. I actually have a better hand than expected here

Not saying this isn't still a fold but the sizing from both players feels fishy.
KT_Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2018, 08:40 PM   #11
branch0095
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 901
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Seems like one of the easiest decisions you'll make all day. Just fold.
branch0095 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2018, 09:23 PM   #12
thin_slicing
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: YangGang2020
Posts: 556
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

I'm folding this 100% of the time.

If you put in a big 5! could you get KK to fold here?
thin_slicing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2018, 12:24 PM   #13
PokerNoob@
centurion
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 158
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
I don't know how someone who can 3bet/b/b/b with anything from soup to nuts and choose that 4bet sizing to be the best player in the room (especially if you can't remember any of his showdowns) but it's still a fold with a med PP, a strong UTG opening range and already a 3bet against that range.
What do you think is the best 4bet sizing here? I see the cold 4bet over two 3bet cold callers is already super strong, IMO, the sizing is not bad.
PokerNoob@ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2018, 04:27 PM   #14
KT_Purple
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 553
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerNoob@ View Post
What do you think is the best 4bet sizing here? I see the cold 4bet over two 3bet cold callers is already super strong, IMO, the sizing is not bad.
I felt the sizing was a tell as to the type of hand he had. I was thinking he would raise slightly less or slightly more with a big hand. This sizing seems non committal to me but in the "I prefer if you fold" sizing

Results:

Hero raises to 1200, folds to villain who tank shoves, hero snap calls and his TT holds vs AKs

Honestly I just wanted to see if anyone plays it the same. it's a big move but I was confident villain wanted folds. Also, if another player in the hand is holding JJ or QQ I'm sure this would get them to fold. Mathematically speaking TT is slightly ahead of a hyper aggressive raising range and i suppose i went with what i thought was a bet sizing tell. It's hyper thin but in a game of reg vs reg wars I was happy with showing down this weak for a stack and a slight overlay. I can't let this v run me over
KT_Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2018, 05:05 PM   #15
agent318
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 35
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

TT raise reraise then shove for $2500 with only $35 committed? At best I am 50/50. At worst 20/80.
agent318 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2018, 05:34 PM   #16
Chunkamunk
grinder
 
Chunkamunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chasers
Posts: 446
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

I really think this should have been posted in the Med-High Stakes forum.

While the level of thinking improves going from 1/2 to 2/5, overall they play pretty similar and the same players can win at both.

I feel like 5/10 is another animal. I am a winning 1/2 player and do not feel comfortable analyzing play at these stakes. I've sweated enough of my friends sessions at 5/10 to know theres a huge difference. With that being said, I feel like a lot of advice here can be discounted because some of the posters have not even played these stakes.
Chunkamunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2018, 05:37 PM   #17
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunkamunk View Post
I really think this should have been posted in the Med-High Stakes forum.

While the level of thinking improves going from 1/2 to 2/5, overall they play pretty similar and the same players can win at both.

I feel like 5/10 is another animal. I am a winning 1/2 player and do not feel comfortable analyzing play at these stakes. I've sweated enough of my friends sessions at 5/10 to know theres a huge difference. With that being said, I feel like a lot of advice here can be discounted because some of the posters have not even played these stakes.
You donít have to be in these stakes to know that vs a 6b shove 250bb deep 1010 is crushed to the ground
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2018, 10:57 AM   #18
KT_Purple
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 553
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunkamunk View Post
I really think this should have been posted in the Med-High Stakes forum.

While the level of thinking improves going from 1/2 to 2/5, overall they play pretty similar and the same players can win at both.

I feel like 5/10 is another animal. I am a winning 1/2 player and do not feel comfortable analyzing play at these stakes. I've sweated enough of my friends sessions at 5/10 to know theres a huge difference. With that being said, I feel like a lot of advice here can be discounted because some of the posters have not even played these stakes.
not a whole lot of posting over there and i've noticed the quality of posting in this forum picking up a lot over the years

5/10 is another animal in that people just aren't folding their direct odds almost ever, you will see a lot more showdowns with people holding hands like Q8s when defending the BB, also, this particular game is deep, reg-filled, and hard to get into, it's not unusual to wait 3 hours to get a seat, so when I do get one I don't want to miss the opportunity to fight for a big stack and get settled in

the thing that I think a 1/2 player can learn from this is that TT under the gun can be used effectively as a 4bet hand because it's the first hand that is mathematically ahead of the entire deck from that position. if they are showing you a bit of weakness you should be able to 4b for a very good profit esp if you can force them to fold JJ and QQ which they will do at that level

before i showed my cards everyone thought i was going to flip over KK so if you are forcing them to fold JJ or QQ but call with AK it's a huge huge profit

I would study up on pre flop math because no one can break the math no matter how good they are

Last edited by KT_Purple; 10-06-2018 at 11:07 AM.
KT_Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2018, 01:01 PM   #19
Akromah
old hand
 
Akromah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,574
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT_Purple View Post
The thing that I think a 1/2 player can learn from this is that TT under the gun can be used effectively as a 4bet hand because it's the first hand that is mathematically ahead of the entire deck from that position. if they are showing you a bit of weakness you should be able to 4b for a very good profit esp if you can force them to fold JJ and QQ which they will do at that level

before i showed my cards everyone thought i was going to flip over KK so if you are forcing them to fold JJ or QQ but call with AK it's a huge huge profit

I would study up on pre flop math because no one can break the math no matter how good they are
So you made this post as a brag to disprove the haters and educate everyone?

Sorry but this isn't what a 1/2 player needs to learn from this with 3bb committed 250bb deep fighting for a flip.
Akromah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2018, 10:03 AM   #20
KT_Purple
banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 553
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

No i made the post to see if anyone would play it the same and happily they don't

if i was making a poker room i would allow up to 300bb buy ins...it's about that point where you do not need to alter your play based on your chip stack. even at 250bb my stack is too short to just call his raise and set mine, even if all the sizings where computer generated based on GTO math I wouldn't be able to flat at 250 bigs but at 300 all my options are in play. cash poker is meant to be 300 bigs deep, it's just an unfortunate occurrence that the parameters of cash poker were set by non poker players and stuck

you may proceed now with your forum
KT_Purple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2018, 10:19 AM   #21
6bet me
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,367
Re: 5/10 Crazy preflop action UTG

I'm instafolding JJ/AQs here, even if the entire table are LAGs.

I'd lean towards folding QQ and AK in this spot too. Your UTG opening range is so strong that when someone 3bets you, their range should already be narrowed down to pretty strong hands like {TT+, AQ+}. By the time it gets to the cold 4bettor, either he's making a move with some AXs hand (unlikely but possible), or he has a super premium in the {QQ+, AK} range.

Since our TT performs so incredibly poorly against a range of {QQ+, AK}, it should be an easy fold.
6bet me is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive