Hello, i mostly play 100-150bb poker online and live, and now im trying to work on my deep stack play. im having trouble SIZING PREFLOP 4BETS OUT OF POSITION.
take this example from a 5/5 game with 1100 effective stacks. We open LJ to 20. CO reg 3bets us to 70. We decide to 4bet a range [AA-JJ, AQ, AK, some suited wheel aces, and some suited connectors] what size should we make it here? (200?)
*we expect this player to primarily continue by flatting here, only 5betting AA and possibly KK

Once you are in 3/4 betting range villain's range, how villain will react and effective stack size matter more then theoretical balance.

In general though 4 bets can be smaller because they look super strong and everybody in the hand will be risking being pot committed if they play. Something $175-$200 is fine against most opponents given that stack size. Smaller works here because SPR is going to be <5. There is only going to be one round of action post flop that isn't a shove and any bet leaves both sides in a pot committed or fold situation.

If villain is more sticky then they should be (which isn't uncommon live) then $200-$225 and reduce your bluffs.

200 is ok. Just don’t go too large w that range bc you don’t want to wind up with sizing so large that only AA/KK can be profitable.

I would not be 4b that wide. JJ would usually be a flat, and QQ can go either way. A2-3s also seem too weak to 4b. Maybe keep it to just partials of A5/4. Also, live poker takes more stack depth to really be considered "deep" b/c 4-6x opens are standard vs 2-3x online. Furthermore, once you're actually deep, like over 2k, you really don't want to 4b that much, like not even KK b/c the SPR will still be large. When you have those big eff stacks, flat more and 4b super polar, like AA/AKs for value and maybe something like A5s & 76s for bluffs.

As far as sizing goes, I second what Quad J said.

Help me think this thru please.

If we take 2 assumptions:
1) our opponent is 3betting us with a wide range.
2) our opponent will continue vs a 4bet primarily by calling in position with a wide range (only 4betting an extremely polar range)

Then why does it follow that we should continue mostly by flatting the 3bet OOP?

It seems to me that the conclusion is that we should 4bet thinly for value. (Thinking of AQ and JJ here)

Yes we will be out of position with a largish SPR, but won’t we realize our equity better if we keep our range uncapped?

That part about not 4b because deep isn’t right.

im not a huge fan of 4b lite OOP, especially deep. People fold less pre, can own you IP. I do 4b a lot lighter IP in dynamics like BTN vs blinds; think people play extremely poorly in these spots. Eg call with occasional SC, not 5b gii QQ BB vs BTN but flatting (specifically online). Also in general live players dont 3b enough so having an optimal 4b bluff range is usually lighting money on fire.

Vs a reg though it can be alright, i would mostly choose hands that have good blockers so it’s more likely he’s screwing around pre, suited hands are nice too, and this deep i’d make it $200-$215. most regs auto fold AQo and worse without much thought. If they’re way wider than your avg JJ+, AK 3b range yeah adding in 4b vs regs is a good way to keep them off your back. Otherwise esp the aggro ones will keep attacking your raises

I like hands like KQo/AJo/A5s/A4s/AJs/A10s/KJs/AQo. Obviously these are mixed for me, the more bottom of that range just gets folded vs an avg player or an unknown, and even when i do 4b these it’s pretty low frequency, has to be vs right player or dynamics. This probably isn’t completely right but it’s what i do lol and it works for me. ymmv

Unless we have a LAG image, these are rarely happening. If we are an "unknown" to the villain, our 4 bet range at the widest to the villian will be QQ+, AK.

So if we do run into a unicorn at the table, the pot is going to be around 50 BB at the flop. Even if we are at 200 BB effective stacks, it is going to be a one or maybe two street game. If you have top pair or better, you're getting your stack in. If the villain attacks weakness, you might check to induce. If you don't, you're likely x/f.

As others have said, live 4-betting is still mostly done at the top range, thus occur at low frequency.

Your image and opponent image are extremely important. Fold equity (FE) should be a component especially when oop. If opponent is sticky, I’d recommend limiting the 4b frequency b/c FE is eliminated. 4betting and getting called oop with AQ/JJ bloats the pot and tests our post-flop skills. Playing a smaller pot is preferable, keep the SPR higher.

If they are liberally 3-b IP, then you can employ a L/RR strategy, especially when deep.

i fear i havent made myself clear in exactly what im asking here.
clearly our 4bet range should vary as a function of our opponents 3bet range. If villain is only 3betting very tight, it would of course be a mistake to 4bet wide.
Perhaps the discussion will be more fruitful if i spell out an exact 3bet range for our opponent so we can get on the same page.
let give him this range:
[AA-TT,AKs,A5s-A2s,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AKo,AQo,KQo, and 1/4 of each of the remaining offsuit broadway combos: AJo,KJo,QJo,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo] =130 combos = 9.8% of hands.

Suppose when we 4bet him, he will shove [AA and 1/2 the KK] = 9 combos = .75%

and flat [1/2 the KK, AKs,A5s-A2s,AKo,AQo,QQ-TT,T9s,98s,87s] = 72 combos = 5.5%

first off, how would u play the AQ/JJ facing a 3bet from this range? (AQ has 47% equity, JJ has 58% equity)

or do u advocate just 4betting the nitted range: AA-QQ,AK?

(my intuition is that it is a big mistake to take the passive approach of calling OOP with a wide range, and only 4bet the nitted range)

And of course, what size should we 4bet to?

This is very helpful

what else value hands do u 4bet here to compliment these low frequency bluffs? (JJ+/AK?)

also do u have a flat range OOP this deep facing the 3bet?

How did you come up with that 3b range for V? If we assume a competent reg, offsuit broadways are usually folds, flats if you have a loose image maybe. It's the suited broadways that should be mixed in as 3b. AQs is for sure a 3b, AJs/ATs 3b sometimes, flat sometimes. KQs, KJs, QJs, JTs would also be 3b sometimes. The offsuit ones should be dumped.

Depends on where im opening from and where the person is 3-betting, and how aggressive either us of or both of us have been. I 4b hands that i’m willing to get in for value with. CO vs BTN and BTN vs blinds im snap 4b GII QQ, but EP/MP i’m most likely not unless they are crazy. I suspect nowadays i’m 4b bluffing a little too much IP but it’s because i think people play horribly against it.

It’s rly uncomfortable for any hand you have besides KK+, AK when facing a 4b from an unknown or someone you dont have too much history on. I also merge my 4b range in dynamics like BTN vs blinds to include hands like AQo/KQo/AJo/weak SCs/KJs though i randomize to prevent massive overbluffing and spewing. Tbh i dont see people use this strat much or talk about it as it is quite strange (only one very good reg i know does something similar, he plays 200Z/500Z). It’s a strat i wanted to try out after playing a lot of hands and seeing population trends over the years, and i thought it would exploit the pool im playing in. Not that it’ll apply to a live table but vs similar/aggro regs you may see at your table this could work decently well. Im probably just talking out of my ass and rambling but yeah lol, it’s something u have to experiment with and see what works for you

Live i think 4b value range usually shouldn’t include worse than QQ and even in most scenarios like EP open and MP 3b you, im not thrilled with 4b QQ and just call. Vs most live players i have zero 4b bluffing frequency whatsoever until they give me a reason to, usually aggro regs who back down to further aggression.

Of course I have a flat range this deep, though i probably defend tighter than most people. IMO i think flatting hands like 22-33 is really leaky. Vs a 8-10% range as you gave i’d defend 66+, A9s+, good suited broadways, 109s, 98s. Im def overfolding but people dont 3b enough anyway and imo i think defending wider than that OOP is pretty meh vs a 9% range.

If you think he’s actually 3-betting random nonsense like QJo/K10o and a lot of offsuit broadways that freq, it’s probably best to 4b a lot wider for bluff and value as i think it’s more +EV as he cant defend much of his range vs you, he has to fold too much bc the hands he is 3betting preflop cant take much heat and cant take a flop.