I'm trying to figure out how to maximize profit preflop with AA/KK. The example is a typical low limit table against a typical mostly loose-passivish villain with eff. stacks of 100BB. Hero is in the CO and villain is on the button. There are 2 limpers. Hero raises preflop with AA or KK to 7BB, villain reraises to 21BB, 2 limpers fold. Should hero 4bet shove? Reraise to say 50BB? Or call the 3bet and shove any flop?

I think a lot of villains may 3bet with hands like AQ+ or TT+ and fold if hero 4bet shoves. Should hero be happy to take down about 30BB in profit no contest? Is it more profitable to let villain see a flop and hope to induce weaker hands to call hero's flop shove? Or is the risk of letting villain hit the flop too great?

I'm interested in all thoughts on this matter. Maybe there's a COTW on this?

Do not 4 bet, unless your 4 bet range is wider than AA/KK AND your opponents KNOW this.

If a passive player has a hand they wanna bet, check/GII on the flop.


I assume that's not a serious question as to whether you want 30bbs or 80bbs.

Flatting OOP let's your opponent free roll you. Bet your hands while you're equity is high. And it's LLSNL, people will level themselves into calling/shoving JJ for 100 bb pre

Heh.

This is villan dependent and I prefer Flatting AA rather than KK. AA is doesn't have to worry about over cards. We are looking to take a flop with 80bb behind and over 40 bb in the pot. With an SPR that low it can be profitable to allow our opponent to thinking 1010-QQ is the nuts. Not to mention if our villan is always c betting flop we can easily get stacks in on the flop. Our villan will be pot committed after their c bet and will have a hard time folding.

In a perfect world we want to be in position when Flatting. We insure that a bet goes in on the flop. Often times I think not having a 4 betting range is best in live games. Being oop my default is almost always going to be to 4 bet with an occasional flat for balance.

JFC...

V is a typical loose passive... he's not cbetting with air. he's only cbetting when he
1) hits the flop
2) has an overpair
2a) flop can't be coordinated - he'll shut down if 3 straight/flush come by river

a few examples:
if you have AA and you're OOP
flop comes J high (or Q/K high), what do you do? check? so he checks back, gets a free card, if he has TT, he's not putting another dime in unless he hits his T. if he bets, it's an obvious call, but does he have JJ or KK-QQ, we don't know.

how about if we have KK OOP
flop comes A high, what do we do? we're still checking apparently, because if we bet, we only get called by better (AK/Q). we fold out QQ-. congrats, a bunch of hands that may have got it in pre, just folded because. if we check, and he checks back, he either has a weak A or he has an underpair, but the fact still remains, he's not putting in more money without hitting one of his few outs. so a lot of times it will go to showdown and V will flip over QQ/JJ/TT, we'll flip over KK and take down a small pot.

yet if we just 4 bet, they will either call/shove when their equity is nil, or they fold. but this is LLSNL, they didnt drive an hour to the casino to fold QQ/JJ/TT pre, nor do they have the discipline to do it.

JUST BET YOUR DAMN HAND AND STOP OVER THINKING THINGS!

If you're never 4betting AA and you're never 4betting bluffs, then you are playing poorly.

4 bet bluffing at 1/2 and 1/3 is lighting money on fire. Unbalanced 4 bet range is 100% optimal. No need to balance.

Seems way to general to even be remotely true. 3 bet bluffing is one thing because we can rep strength but 4 bet bluffing is just a notch too high for live low stakes. Live poker most a 4 bets are KK+ unless proven otherwise.

In certain games it is perfectl optimal to not have a 4 betting range at all. Especially if our opponents c bet too often. In the scenario of 100 bb and a 3 bet to 21 bb would make the pot 45ish bb with only 79bb behind. If our opponent does s typical c bet they have committed themselves so we can get added value from the range that is correctly folding to our 4 bet.

Great summary.

I think it's a pretty big mistake to slow-play kings pre-flop. It's to likely that an ace comes on the flop and either QQ gives up when they would have called a pre-flop 4-bet, or Villain has AK and will fold if they don't hit.

Just make a normal sized 4-bet with KK/AA and go from there.

That's a totally random and unfounded statement. I especially enjoyed the perfectly optimal as opposed to to the imperfectly optimal.

For clarification, I mean call the 3bet preflop and bet-shove any flop, not check hoping to induce a cbet from villain. An ace hits the flop only 30% of the time with KK and most of the time AA will still be an overpair on the flop. I'm wondering if we get more calls from TT-QQ type hands on low flops if we call pre and bet-shove the flop compared to 4betting pre.

I probably am overthinking it. Is there a COTM on 3bet/4bet startegy at low stakes? It's a part of my game I'm looking to improve.

KK 4bet

AA flat, obviously if its 3 or 4 way bc peopole flat the 3bet then just stuff for 100 bb

Villain dependent. Most fish don't like 3-bet/folding hands like JJ+, AK+, so 4-bet seems to be the best move. Against decent regs you can flat and play a flop.

i think you are overthinking it... lets run with this scenario.

assumption 1: Vs 3bet range is {TT+, AQ+, AJs}, its arbitrary if it's wider/narrower, because the point will be made regardless
assumption 2: Vs 4bet call range is {QQ-TT, AK}
assumption 3: Vs 5 bet range is {KK+}

action 1: call 3 bet OOP with AA/KK
action 2: donk shove all flops

scenario 1: our hand AA
flop comes A high, what calls? probably only AK/Q/J. maybe not even AJ. where do we lose value? many combos of KK/QQ/JJ/TT

scenario 2: our hand AA
flop comes K high, what calls? All AA, KK, AK. where do we lose value? QQ/JJ/TT/AQ

scenario 3: our hand AA
flop comes Q high, what calls? All QQ+, AQ. where do we lose value? TT/JJ, some AK

scenario 4: our hand KK
flop comes A high, what calls? All hands that beat us! where do we lose value? all hands we dominate!

scenario 5: our hand KK
flop comes K high, what calls? AA, AK. where do we lose value? QQ-, AQ-

scenario 6: our hand KK
flop comes Q high, what calls? QQ+, AQ. where do we lose value? JJ-, AK

scenario 7: our hand AA/KK
we 4 bet, they call with worse a ton, then when any of those scenarios above happen they feel pot committed, so they may be more inclined to call TT on a J high flop because there is 100bb in the pot already. when they fold, you have a bigger pot. when they call, they will have less equity... in a bigger pot!

by calling OOP and autoshoving, we allow V play perfectly postflop, getting their money in when they are a dog a small % of the time, and dominating us a large % of the time. sure when, the flop comes 8 high, we know we're good pretty much always, but does that happen often enough?

Probably more hero (image) dependent than villain dependent. I play laggy so I almost always 4bet.

Tank min-4bet and see reaction. AA and KK are hands you want to get it in pre, especially oop. If in position, I might just tank flat but oop, too much guess work involved to not 4bet small. Makes a flop shove look more callable too

I'm It may be a random statement but if you really can't imagine a dynamic where Flatting 3 bets with AA or KK(in position is what I recommended in my post) is optimal then you really have no business giving others advice.

I have read plenty of your horrendous advice in other threads to not read anything into your resonse. Auto 4 betting KK+ is a leak if we allow players to fold lesser hands period. Think about the last time you saw a 4 bet that wasn't AA or KK in a live game then maybe you might think of a situation where Flatting AA or KK might be PERFECTLY OPTIMAL.

Either your opponents are folding too much to a 4bet, in which case you need to bluff them some, or they're calling too much, in which case you need to 4bet your value hands. Or they're calling with exactly the right frequency, in which case you need to mix up your play. QED. Playing call/fold in response to 3bets is never optimal and also never a correct exploitation.

Going to have to disagree with the word never. There is plenty of value in occasionlly Flatting 3 bets when we are only 100 bb. When stack depth gets deeper sure I totally agree but being only 100 bb deep the 4 bet is just not a bluff because you have put in half your stack by then. What I'm advocating is not a default play and is extremely Villan dependent but I have played in games where it is optimal for the deception value. Especially when they like to auto c bet.

When you play 1/2 or 1/3 NL you can honestly say that when someone 4 bets you don't range them at KK+?

I'm going to have to seriously disagree with your ranges here.
Likely 90% of 1/2 and 1/3 players wouldn't dream of 3betting AJ/AQ and TT.
At least 60% won't 3bet JJ/QQ.
98% of the villains won't even 5bet KK. It is only AA.

However, what this does imply is that you arrived at the right conclusions, which is to normally 3bet/4bet with AA/KK and then just try and gii on most flop.

The reason however is that most are too call happy with 'decent' hands and have no concept of relative hand strength and range and their opening/3bet range is sohigh pocket pair heavy that they are rarely folding when we 3bet or 4bet. So when you open, then 3bet with QQ, and you 4bet, they call because well, "I haz QQ!" and then they stack off on the Q high flop or lower 100% of the time because they have an overpair, and they are 'comitted'.

Whether or not the range is correct is inconsequential; a wider range for V makes the reasoning more obvious, and that was my point