$1-3NL. Table's a wild one. Average pot headed to flop had to been like $50-$70 range.


Hero: JJ. $800 stack, V has maybe over a $1,000. Playing TAG.

V: Super LAGy. Calling station, betting station. However, here's were the asterisk comes in. He never ONCE in 4 hours 3bet me preflop. And in fact he rarely 3bet anyone. He'll raise and call a lot of 3bets, but doesn't do it himself. But he's always super aggressive and loose postflop. He'll bluff, semi-bluff, and overplay like a weak top pair with 3 barrels. This is my conundrum, which I'll will explain later.

Preflop: I raise to $12 from MP, TAG calls in cutoff, LAG calls on button, then V in SB raises to $70. How does hero proceed from here?

call

Even for a LAG, I would think this is raise from the SB indicates Strength. I'd Think somewhere along the lines of 1010+, AQ/AK. I think calling is the best option and reevaluating after the flop. Raising seems to be out of the question based on your read. Folding is pretty tight, especially with the stacks being so deep. If you hit a set, you have a chance to get mega paid

@Playbig. Thanks, but I'm more interested in how we proceed postflop him given his description and likely range. Are we just calling down 3 bets post on 228 10 3 type board? Whats are plan here. Tx.

LOL im sorry I thought it was kinda like a PAHWAM

Obviously, even according to your own read, since he's never 3bet before, his 3bet out of the blinds has to be read as a nutted hand (AA, KK, QQ, AK).

So we're going to flat, but it's not just a setmine since JJ has enough showdown value on it's own. Since we're the next one to act, I would expect at least one or two of the other players to get priced in and flat as well, which they usually do.

If there are overcards otf (especially an ace or king) and he cbets, I would fold without much thought. We have basically a medium pocket pair. But if we do flop a set, like another poster said, LAG's will give us enough action to make money on the hand.

With regards to calling down post on low boards, I'm at least calling a cbet then if he starts firing out again on blank turns, depending on how big his bets are, yes I can let it go. It really depends on his bet size, and other reads/tells and if you think he's barreling with AK. My goal is to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, not to go broke then see him turn over aces. This is very read dependent.

All of this

I have a difficult time at tables like this, and it is definitely out of my wheelhouse.

I probably just limp preflop. A raise isn't going to narrow the field at this crazy table, and even "flopping well" with an overpair (which ain't gonna happen all that much) is going to be a difficult spot in a bloated pot (especially with LAG on the Button who is going to steal a lot of these bloated pots from us). It also sucks if we get raised, where we'll probably have to fold (thus giving up our setmaking equity, which at this table I'd hate to pass up on). The only good thing a raise does is most likely set ourselves up for playing for stacks in a cooler situation and JJ is likely to be on the good side of a cooler.

Looks like we're getting about 12:1 to setmine (which is what we're doing against someone who hasn't 3bet in 4hours), maybe a bit more if another guy or two calls. Kinda thinnish. I fold.

ETA: BTW, if our plan isn't just to setmine and often call a cbet, then we need *way* more IO than just 12:1 (as we're often spewing calling a cbet), imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Totally agree. Expect the one thing that kept going through my head, is this guy was 3 barreling very very often. So I almost felt I would have to call down on low card board min 2 streets and maybe river. He was relentless. He would do this with decent amount of his AK combos. But I knew QQ+ was very very realistic here.

Result:

So I folded. It was a bad fold. Given deep stacks like you guys said and his LAG style, I should have been set mining for sure at minimal.

I don't think it's a bad fold at all, considering his 3bet sizing. His range was narrow as you suspected. Good read.

Treat it like you would 10-10.

Against a range of [QQ+, AK]...

JJ has very little showdown value after seeing 5 community cards.

Imo, set mine only.

I don't mind the fold at all.

I did sorta forget this guy is aggro enough to barrel, so if we call just to setmine there is a decent chance we get paid off postflop if he has a big hand. However, we do get stacked every once in a while when we setmine and he makes a bigger hand, plus we don't always get his stack when we flop a set (such as here on a AJx / KJx flop it's unlikely). 12:1 is pretty thinnish.

And you also state "at minimal", which suggests there will be flops where you will be considering calling a cbet (and perhaps even another barrel sometimes). Your preflop read told you exactly where you were at, so doing anything other than setmining is really decimating your already thin 12:1 odds.

Gfoldingwasfine,imoG

I learned how to play JJ from the Torelli vs Doug Polk hand, just never fold

Thanks

But the issue is, there is close to a 50/50 split between higher pairs vs. AK combos and he's betting close to all his AK combos on flop. So how can I just fold on a 844 flop? That was my whole dilemma to this hand when I was deciding to fold or call. And thus why I folded.

*If* you think setmining is profitable (and in this case it might be, it's probably fairly close), then the key is to have the discipline to fold T- high flops. Yeah, sometimes we'll fold the best hand, but if we've already concluded that setmining is profitable, then do that.

GcluelesssetminingnoobG