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Old 06-11-2015, 03:13 PM   #1
sungar78
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3bet OOP deep top of fold range

This one came up last night and made me think a lot.

Hero had been playing pretty TAG. Card dead the last 30 minutes ago credibility should be high. One show down in an hour. Limps to me in LP w 77 I raise. HU flop of 858, I call a bet turn T call a bet , river 7 Vil leads I ship like 120 he calls 66 pot about 450... Different history w him, and he is not involved in the hand.

Effective stacks this hand 600 or so. Straddled pot.

Vil 1 is a loose lawyer I'm guessing pfr/vpip of roughly 20/35 not too much else to say. Not expecting big moves from him post. His flatting range for the 3bet is normally 66-JJ + A Q-J... Everything else is a 4bet or fold imo. I'm going to do some math but I would say I get about 45-60 folds

Vil2 has been playing pretty solid. Lawyer is too his immediate right and they are both deep so he loosens his calling range when lawyer is involved. Same deal w his calling range but maybe add a few premium suited connectors when lawyer also flats, and he folds much more often (probably 60-80%) when lawyer folds.

I'm going to start w preflop action even though I've eluded to further action.

Straddle Hero is in BB

One blah call for 4 and a fold
Vil 1 raises to 15
Vil 2 calls
One more call (take my word this one is 90%) garbage
To hero in BB A5 raises to $79

How is my line so far? (is this because you dont ever 3bet light or is this just not the spot)

Any more reads that you think are important, I have a few more less important things that I could comment about Vil 1 and 2 and why the third caller is a non issue.

Thanks in advance for the help, will post further action.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:22 PM   #2
MirrorMirror
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

What position is Villian in?

This is an almost 2x pot 3 bet. You need a high fold % to do this as a pure bluff. I eould think that if you're saying his f3b is as low as 45% then this is a bad bluff. If you get called, the SPR is getting quite low with a 3 bet that big, and when called I'm thinking you're a significant dog.

I would probably not do this with an offsuit rag ace.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:33 PM   #3
fitzthetaxman
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

It is a pot sized 3 bet. I don't really like it. Seems like you are setting yourself up to play a big pot OOP against two villains who have ranges that are composed of lots of hands which have you in rough shape.

I think you can find way better spots to bloat pot against this guy.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:34 PM   #4
timmay28
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

if you're gonna do this I'd make it more than $79 being oop w/a5o
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:18 PM   #5
YGOchamp
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

The pot should be $56, so purely as a complete bluff this has to work only 41% of the time to be breakeven. Given in a straddled pot a $14 open is standard and you already said he's fairly loose, plus calling ranges are relatively weak obv.

Given your image I'd say this is a pretty good spot for a squeeze play with the ace blocker. And there's no reason to make it more then $79 here, that's $65 on top for somebody to call, and their unlikely to defend a large majority of their opening/flatting range.

Plus even if somebody flats, one c-bet on the flop will take it down most of the time.

Last edited by YGOchamp; 06-11-2015 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:21 PM   #6
The Rumor
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

Just be ready to bet like crazy on flops that are bad for their range.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:29 PM   #7
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
The pot should be $56, so purely as a complete bluff this has to work only 41% of the time to be breakeven. Given in a straddled pot a $14 is standard and you already said he's fairly lose, plus calling ranges are relatively weak obv.

Given your image I'd say this is a pretty good spot for a squeeze play with the ace blocker. And there's no reason to make it more then $79 here, that's $65 on top for somebody to call, and their unlikely to defend a large majority of their opening/flatting range.

Plus even if somebody flats, one c-bet on the flop will take it down most of the time.
Needs to work way more than 41%. He's putting $79 in the pot to win $50. He has equity when called, but not all that much.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:31 PM   #8
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

I'd probably fold.
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:38 PM   #9
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
Just be ready to bet like crazy on flops that are bad for their range.
Vil 1 and 2 both tank and flat folds everywhere else

Flop Ah 9c 6c pot $260ish $520 behind

I was planning on going hard on all monotone / dry flops. Had a few different ideas on this one. What do we like?
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:59 PM   #10
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

crying that we got called two ways

I really wish you had Ac

Do you think you can get them to fold AQ-AJ with a double barrel? If so, not a bad spot to bet.

Definitely am hating life that we are OOP.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:19 PM   #11
YGOchamp
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

I concur with Rumor, I would just be crying.

I think a good chunk of their calling range here is stuff like QJs, KQs, maybe 99, tt, 88. Not too many aces they should have when you have a blocker.

I don't think you can really assume you have fold equity OTT if they call a flop bet, but it's also gross because a good chunk of your range is also TT-KK which should still be c-betting here, so it's difficult to know if they're peeling light or actually do have like AQs, AJs, and if they'll really fold to a turn shove.

I would say bet around $150 on the flop, and I don't really know what I'd do on most turns truth be told. That's why I haven't incorporated a light 3bet into my game, because I'll admit I wouldn't know what to do in that exact spot on the turn.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:44 PM   #12
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
Not too many aces they should have when you have a blocker
After getting called in 2 spots following a $79 3-bet, I'm assuming that at least one of these players has a better ace.

The blocker is really a pre-flop consideration (i.e. an argument for the squeeze play). After the pf action, though, I'm no longer assuming that is the case.

If you're continuing a bluff, you have to decide whether V1 and V2 will fold a pair of aces here, and I think that's unlikely seeing as they didn't call a big absolute bet pf only to hit top pair and then fold to a c-bet.

If neither of these players has a better ace, then you probably have the best hand on this board. Other than spades, which is a small % of the pf ranges, there really arent any good draws on board. You just have to worry about getting bluffed off your bad kicker by something like KK-TT since you are OOP. Bad spot overall.
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

I am not thrilled with the your position I the opponents you decided to 3 bet as a bluff. The idea when 3 bet bluffing is to get them to fold. I don't think this qualifies as 3 betting light for value.

As played think we have to check flop. If you bet we are way over representing our hand. I prefer to check and add some deception. Problem is we are OOP so we are in a terrible spot which is likely the biggest reason I don't like the 3 bet pre. Being in a bloated 2 SPR pot OOP with A5 off suit is seriously lighting money on fire.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:01 PM   #14
YGOchamp
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

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Originally Posted by MirrorMirror View Post
After getting called in 2 spots following a $79 3-bet, I'm assuming that at least one of these players has a better ace.

The blocker is really a pre-flop consideration (i.e. an argument for the squeeze play). After the pf action, though, I'm no longer assuming that is the case.
I'm not saying they can't have one, but given we have one, there's one on the board, AND we squeezed pre, it's a lesser chunk of their range.

I don't really think we can simply assume the majority of their 3bet defending range has big aces in it. Probably ATs+, if not AJs+, but the lawyer can easily have hands like KQs, QJs, JTs (a lot of loose players will have these hands in unsuited variants as well) 88+, and him calling gives immediate pot odds to the other player to setmine with any pair or maybe even hands like 67s when effective stacks are $600 and its $80 pre; pretty good implied odds are being given here.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:04 PM   #15
YGOchamp
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

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Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed View Post
I am not thrilled with the your position I the opponents you decided to 3 bet as a bluff. The idea when 3 bet bluffing is to get them to fold. I don't think this qualifies as 3 betting light for value.

As played think we have to check flop. If you bet we are way over representing our hand. I prefer to check and add some deception. Problem is we are OOP so we are in a terrible spot which is likely the biggest reason I don't like the 3 bet pre. Being in a bloated 2 SPR pot OOP with A5 off suit is seriously lighting money on fire.
If you're checking it better be with the intention of folding, which you shouldn't be anyway. No point to check/call unless you're actually trying to induce a bet for value with top pair weak kicker. Much better to bet the flop and give us some FE, and then consider checking the turn when it's less likely they'll try to blow us off our equity.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:19 PM   #16
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

I like the squeeze. Be ready to c- bet 1/3 pot on any flop. As played bet/fold $90
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:36 PM   #17
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

Pre, 3bing Axo is pretty bad. Although you have a blocker to AA, AK/AQ, when you get called your equity is rarely going to be great. Much prefer to do this with Axs so you can flop a NFD which gives you >40% equity against QQ- about 12% of the time. Also, you're doing this against 1 limper and a pfr and a caller, so you're not going to get all of them to fold often at all.

OTF, bet flop around $170, if you get called be prepared to give up since their calling ranges are Ax heavy and they're not gonna to fold with so little behind.
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Old 06-12-2015, 01:04 AM   #18
sungar78
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Re: 3bet OOP deep top of fold range

This is dying a little so I'm going to close it up and get to the point.

preflop I'm still up in the air as to whether I should be doing this. I'm going to dig deep still but haven't had time yet as I feel it will take a few hours. I have the ace blocker and some equity when they call, I also feel like there's extra juice in there and playability postflop so I don't hate the play. Although I planned to barrel many flops, I definitely should've thought a little more about exit strategies before making the play as a scenario I hadn't anticipated arouse.

I left on a 3bet 3way flop of

Ax 9 6 Pot $260 $520 behind and first to act with A 5
The action ended up going c/c/c

I elected to check for a variety of reasons. Mostly I felt that my hand was now too strong against their ranges to overrep my hand. The pot had become slightly bloated inadertently and I felt that further bets were much less likely at this point to illicit folds from better (if they weren't going to fold later anyway) and more likely to illicit folds from worse. I also felt that checking might allow me to extract some value later from bluff catchers. They both called $80 preflop for God's sakes, I would hope that they occasionally make some loose calls later if they justified making loose calls before. (this might seem counterintuitive with my logic preflop; but really the more I think it's just in line with gaining further information, my primary tactic here was to have a hand that blocked super premiums against what I perceived as a relatively weak range and take the pot down preflop; now for plan B)

After the action goes c/c/c I convince myself that I have the nuts unless a crazy turn peels or they flopped exactly 99 or 66 and got greedy

Turn Ax 9 6 9 Pot $260 $520 behind.

After the checks even though I think I have the best hand very often I feel like I need to protect my hand in case a weaker draw checked back fearing a check raise

I bet $80 .... If they're mostly dead they're mostly dead and I get value. If they have a draw this is still the wrong price and I don't really put anyone on a check flop/call turn line w a draw here now that the board has paired. I also like that they don't get there for free now at least.

Vil 1 (Lawyer calls) Vil 2 folds

River Ax 9 6 9 8 Pot $420 $440 Behind

I bet $150 .... I guess I'm trying to merge bluff and value. I think he may have taken my flop check as weakness and now hold QQ-TT or possibly a now pipped Ace. If he has the former and called the turn I gave him excellent odds to make a crying call. If he has the latter and wants to call I'm not sure I now get a fold that I wouldn't have otherwise unless I bet significantly more.

This hand has been on my mind since I played it, I've retraced it every way I could fathom.

Do your damndest...

Last edited by sungar78; 06-12-2015 at 01:15 AM.
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