1-2 gambly underground game. V is a weak tight nutpeddler with betsizing tell, has been seen raising to 12 pre with AsJs. 12+ is the "normal" size at this table when there isn't a straddle.

The V on the BU is a loose old man but is able to give credit when someone 3bets, he is very loose when a single raise goes into the pot.

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, V makes it 8 directly to the right of Hero. Hero in the CO with ATC. What 3betsize?

You need to give us more information.

We need cards, for starters. ATC ain't gonna cut it. I'm folding 72o.

Stack sizes are also important.

Stack sizes?

100bbs effective vs V, hero covers everyone on the table.

BU has around 150bbs effective.

Blinds are non-factor one with 100bbs one with like 30bbs, both nutpeddlers. The 30bbs stack could be annoying but he isn't active at all.

Not sure why cards matters, in this instance I had J8o. Not expecting a call so this is a complete bluff. Would not fold 72o.

72 doesn't flop well, doesn't play well post-flop, etc.

J8 flops stronger one-pair hands, often flops a gut-shot, etc.

When 3bet bluffing we either want (A) a hand that blocks big hands, such as Ax, or (B) a hand that has some post-flop playability, such as J8.

Given that you don't seem to grasp why J8 is a better hand to 3bet than 72o, I'd recommend just folding PF.

Lol trying to tilt me or something.

I just want opinion on sizing, because my 3bet sizing went from way too small to way too big and I'm trying to save some money when a play like this doesnt work. Ill pass on waiting for the perfect hand.

Stack sizes and other villains matter. Watch out for EP limpers who limp/call with strong hands. Mostly though, optimal size depends on the first raiser, what size does he fold to?

Generally I like 2.5X the previous bet plus a little more if there are limpers or other dead money in the pot. That would be $22-$25 in this situation. I might push it up to $30 though because the original raise is relatively small.

DaYu is right.
Stack sizes are very important and your hand is pretty important here. In a spot where 3 bet bluffing will only win you a small pot (7bb), you are going to want some hand equity/blockers to go with it. If this were a spot where it went 8, call call call call, then your hand matters less because this is more of a spot for a pure bluff.

In spots where your risk/reward ratio is worse, you are going to want something extra like hand equity or blockers. In a spot where the risk/reward ratio is better, your bluff has to work a smaller percentage of the time to be profitable so you can do it with less equity.

Maths:

SB BB limp limp 4x (7.5BB in the pot) you 4x his raise. So you put in 16BB to win 7.5. If he calls and you have garbage that rarely hits flops, you are stuck trying to purebluff a bloated pot most of the time.

Now...

SB BB 4x call call call call you 7x his raise... No you put in 28BB to win 21.5BB. Even though your 3 bet size is almost double, your risk/reward is much larger so you can do it with a lower equity hand.

You're not going to put any relevant information in this thread at all for anyone to give you any information. But you do know what's too small and what's too big.

What are you looking for that's not in the 1000s of links returned when you google: 3 bet sizing?

Many years ago I met the women's long ball champion. She'd been seriously injured but she taught herself golf. One thing I'll always remember is that she'd try something and if it didn't work she move the ball by a 1/4 of an inch and hit 50+ balls that way, and then adjust again.

So maybe you can take the amount that's too small and add 2 dollars to it, and if that doesn't work add 2 dollars more rather than adjusting in 100 dollar increments or whatever it is that you're doing that you won't tell us any details about.

So I asked about stack sizes because usually it's a consideration but honestly I'm not 3b bluffing this spot unless its for metagame purposes and usually that's not a reason. It's not a squeeze spot so theres not really enough dead money to justify a raise size that is likely to take the pot down a large percentage of the time.

The only 3b here that makes sense in my way of thinking is a 3b to iso the nut pedler PFR with the sizing tell. I'm assuming we take his small raise to be small pps or weaker unmade SCs/Broadways???.

So if my plan was to iso hi I'd raise to around 2x the standard raise... $22-25 max maybe just my standard raise + the pot or so expecting to get him heads up and cbet most flops.

Like I said I don't really see a larger 3b sizing a worth while investment given the little dead money involved here.

Now if we had a couple callers in between that would be different. I usually start consideration at 2X the raise + the pot. So if V raised to 7 and got 2 callers I'd consider making it around $35. From that number I consider the villain and how likely he is to call at that amount and whether that amount relative to stacks allows proper implied odds for set mining etc. and adjust as I feel is appropriate for that situation.

jamit

Lol. Seriously though there's not much in the pot in this scenario to be worth a 3! IMO. But if you do wanna do it you should have a hand that at least blocks or has a chance against people's calling range. Even something like K2 can beat TT-QQ with one pair. That's why everyone is saying your starting hand is important.

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I see, there just isn't enough dead money in this spot.

I raised to 35 and everyone snap folded, but realized 35 is way too big for the 15 bucks in the pot. Before I would 3bet smaller to around 3x the original raise (20-25) and get called by some people left to act and the original raiser very often so now I bomb it when I have reads of weakness but this is so thin if I have to bet huge... Not even worth it and probably -ev actually.

Well his range is so pp heavy that I think I could just cbet any flop (unless something horible like 346 flop) and he'll call or raise me if he hits his set and fold everything else. If he does a pot builder raise with random suited gappers/Axs I doubt he'd call a 3bet with it HU so my equity wasnt important at all.

save these creative steals for 1000nl+

Agreed. I was going to post something similar but this beat me to it.

And J8 is far from being the perfect hand, but bluffing with it is still way better than bluffing with 72 for the reasons just mentioned.

3bet sizing should be 3/4x the raise size as a rule of thumb. Also, GL 3betting this, he's huge. When an old man makes it smaller than normal or much larger than normal he's holding the goods. (varies on how they play, of they're ABC they go larger, if they have some trickyness in them it's smaller)

- this is from my experience anyway, old folks love to under rep hands when there's aggressive young guns at the table, they're not daft they know how to give us the rope to hang ourselves.