Table: (1/2$) deep, 150BB is shortest stack, most with 250BB+, table is super passive pre. Most pots are limped around unless I raise pre.

Hero: $620 Aggro image. Very active. Playing close to 50% vpip. Due to table dynamics, seeing lots of flops from late position, with rags.

Villain: $1000+ Generally terrible fish. Gets stuck and gambles to recover. However he is playing fairly well today. Rarely bluffing, betting big when making strong hands. Making lots of hands. Has not called any big bets without nutted hands. Has shown nuts or close with every bet over $100

3 limps,
Tight Tag opens in HJ to $12
Hero flats with 55 in CO
Villain flats in BB.
1 limper flats

Flop $45
Js-Jc-5s

Vilain checks, limper check, Tag bets $25,

Hero calls
Villain calls
Limper folds.

Turn J-Js-5s-8c

Check,
Check,
Hero Bet $70
Villain raises to $185

Hero?

Comments on all streets welcome.

Call and calling most rivers. A 'terrible fish' likely believes trips are the nuts. There are only one or two combos of J8s and three 88 combos. I think he takes this line with a lot of AJ/KJ/QJ/JT.

When you say 'close to the nuts' would he think that AJ is the nuts here?
Generally not going to fold here against a stuck gambler, but your read suggest that he's a pretty strong.

There's only 6x J8, 3x 88 2x J5 and 1x lol JJ here that we lose to.

We are likely going to call off any river bet if we call the turn so we should expect to be calling $115 + ~$300 or $415 total to win $685.

He has 12 combos that beat us so we need him to have 8 combos that we beat.
If he has all AJ here then that is 8 combos.
We should plan to call down I think.

He shouldn't really have 88 here though, so we should def be good often enough to call.

Well first you have to decide if you want to get it in with this 'terrible fish'. As Eddie points out there are a ton more realistic Jx than hands that beat you. Probably 5:1 you are ahead. I think I would just target the Jx hand....

I'd call with a view that we are repping a weaker J or a spade draw. I'd expect a bet OTR with non-spade cards. Then I'd raise over. An alternative line might be a OTR raise. Although he might get away from that.

I don't think I'd be so quick to eliminate 88 from V's range OTT.

Not sure I see J8 or J5 in his range either. At least, the only possible ones are J8s or J5s, but that's really only Jh8h, Jd8d and maybe Jh5h (need to know which 55 hero has).

Not really expecting JJ to raise OTT like this.

I think V looks like [Jx, 88] mostly, [JJ,J8,J5] should be discounted and not eliminated.

Pot OTT is $45+75 = $120. If you flat, then its $120+185+185 = $490 with about 1 PSB left OTR.

Seems best to call and call OTR so that he doesn't get itchy and fold any Jx.

3b turn to $300 and shove River. V can have AJ KJ enough that his turn raising range isn't only boats. If he's got a boat well what can you do? He'd have to show me the boat to consider not getting it in here. I'd also raise the flop since Jx isn't folding and any other hand that isn't Jx probably stops putting money in on the turn or calls once and folds River.

Range is pretty accurate imo. Doubt J-5, but J-8 suited for sure. 88 definitely in his range. As he would peel flop most likely, but not always. With Tag betting and Hero flatting already.

He is never bluffing here ever. Also don't think he has any clue about controlling pot, with such deep stacks. Think he definitely raising AJ and KJ here, along with all boats.

Decided I am never folding here. Seen him over play to many hands in past (although not tonight).

So call/call. I probably lose whole stack as he ships all boats on river.

Call/call. He probably bets 250 ish with trips on river. Sometimes shipping.

Raise/bet (call) stacks get in. Maybe he finds hero fold on turn. Doubtful though if I click it back.

Ship turn. Probably worst option. But will he really fold to aggro guy he doesn't care for?

This is a spot where you're only getting profit from the bottom of V's range here (even though you completely cruse that part of his range). Therefore, you shouldn't take a line that might, even if its a small chance, let him out of jail.

Also, you have position. If he checks OTR, you can put in that last bet and he'll give you a crying call with his Jx.

Hero tanks for 30 seconds. Decide only river card I can ever find a fold on is an 8 or J. Believe Vilain will ship all boats on river.

Hero ships for raise of roughly $380 more.

Just call. Calling is fine. Though I would raise this flop a decent % of the time, you are lucky that your opponent is still letting you get the money in. So call and get the money in on the river.

We are about 65/45 against his raising range. Not getting stacks in (when winning) is a rather large mistake.

I am not getting folds from "J". They are calling a large majority of time ( benifts of image). If not 100%.

So I don't think luck had much to do with it. Besides hitting flop.

Does calling flop make any sense with the goal of continuing to get lots of/max value from Jx on turn and river while also giving Qx, Kx, Ax a chance to turn top pair and many kinds of hands a chance to turn straight or flush draws?

Just seems like we're gonna get chips in vs Jx no matter what, and a flop call might also give us a chance to win bets vs many more hands in ranges.

Most people aren't putting in much more money once someone calls this flop regardless of runout. They're always going to be worried about boats with their draw hands and Jx when they do make a pair on turn. This deep I'm raising and hoping someone has Jx or wants to get frisky with a bluff.

We had 2 players left to act. Allowing them to put money in on flop is huge win. As they are likely peeling with 2 outs or less. Lots of time they are drawing dead with flush draw.

Plus if they have a Jack. They may elect to raise being OOP.

The only hands that beat you are JJ, 88, J8, and J5. We can exclude J5 from Villain's range. So far, he's called $25 getting 4:1 and raised $115 on top of a pot of $260, giving you about 2.5:1.

All three of his potential winning hands make sense here, so IMO it comes down to whether this is a player who thinks AJ or KJ is the nuts in this situation. I think we can exclude premium hands that you're beating (AA-QQ) because he did not raise the flop OOP, and 9T would be foolish to call OTF. Entirely possible he's overvaluing one of those overpairs, although his caution so far suggests otherwise.

IMO, you're either playing for stacks with a reraise or OTR, or you have to fold. The only hands you're beating are Jx (probably J-broadway) and bluffs, but unless you fold it's getting in on the next street. I probably shove and challenge him to make a mistake by calling with any Jx that hasn't already made a full house. Otherwise you're looking at an all-in bet OTR, and this option allows you to force your opponent to potentially make a mistake.

He should never be raising AA-QQ on the flop here.

Raising turn could be large mistake if he folds a naked "J".

But I went through a downswing awhile back. Believe alot of it had to do with thinking people will fold medium strength hands too to much aggression, and always trying to keep there ranges wide as possible.

Truth is. At 1/2 and 1/3. People's calling ranges will always be super wide, and we need to bet larger and wider than is believed on this forum.

Thanks man. Makes perfect sense. Yeah I'm realizing just how deep we are multi-way, and raising to build a pot against hands that will allow us to build a pot on the flop sounds good. It would be interesting though time consuming and probably not too accurate to calculate based on ranges and other assumptions the estimated difference in value between raising flop and calling. The one question I still have about your response is what % of ranges really contain a J? There are 2 J's on the board, and, either way, ranges include so many hands that are not Jx. Like Jx may be around 5-10% of ranges, but overcards Qx, Kx, Ax, as well as hands that can turn decent flush and/or straight draws, could be quite a high %. That's why I was wondering about flatting flop with a plan to build turn/river pots with excellent position.

I like the turn shove. I cant imagine any part of villains range folding after betting 185.

Villain dependent situation. Does he get excited with trip jacks here? If not, this sucks.

In my experience, 1/2 players don't raise on the turn to nearly $200 then fold.... almost ever. Bet/fold just isn't in their repertoire. For this reason I would sigh shove and let him put me on a straight draw, flush draw, combo draw, or worse J.

I understand that people don't want to blow him off the hand, but it appears as though Villain is committed, so let's not let some awful river card convince him otherwise.

Yes we could be behind. But I think we're ahead more often given the number of combos that beat us.

if all your chips arent in the pot by the river we have a problem

This is right. All the talk about V folding a "naked jack" is laughable. He has trips! He's never folding. Only the tightest OMCs fold here among standard LLSNL Vs.

Villain is never folding a jack. He thinks a good J is just about the nuts. Easy jam on the turn.

If you run into J8 or 88, it's a cooler. But this is usually a highly profitable spot against this type of villain. Think you played this one correctly. Could also call on turn with plan to jam on river, but don't think it makes much of a difference.