effective stack is 200 here

V1: passive player who overvalues some hands and his opening sizes seem to correlate with his hand strengths , fairly easy player to read

V2: kid in his 20's , says he plays online for a living, so should be a person that doesn't play like most in this player pool, I think he plays TAG but capable of mixing things up as well

I've played w V2 before and he's seen me do some crazy **** so maybe this is relevant here, i am new to table so no image established yet really

V1 opens to 7 in MP, V2 flat calls in the HJ, I have Jh5h OTB, I 3! to 32; I've been challenging myself to look for profitable 3! spots, based on MP's opening range and HJ's calling range this looked like a good spot to apply pressure IP

MP folds, and V2 calls in the HJ

HU to a F : JQ6 (hhx) ; (73) ; x'd to me , great flop for me , i cb 40 here; V snap calls ;

T: Kd ;(153) V leads into me for 35 here, tiny bet here.. not sure how to range him here... i ultimately decided i didn't have much FE here if i was to shove .. so i call after some thought

V was saying that he thought I had AK which was a bit strange to me ...

R: 8os ; (223) , he puts me AI for 100 ; I'm getting about 3 to 1 here OTR; can i hero call this? his line is very strange , i couldn't think of any bluffs he could have here so i decided on a fold OTR


How can i range this player based on his line?

How does my line look here?

Thanks for any feedback

Fold preflop, ship turn. As played fold

Fold pre. Even if it's a good spot, and even if your image is better, your hand is just too weak. Yes, in some of these spots your hand is not relevant because the PFR and caller will fold, but in live 1/2 games--even a person like this will likely defend more than they should. This is all especially true at 100bb stack depth.

Fold pre. Would rather do this with hands like J9ss or A5ss.

I think given the rarity of 3!'s in 1/2 games, I don't think this guy is going to be defending very often after opening for 7, my hand looks like TT+/AQ+

It would be nicer to be deeper, but yeah i felt that my hand strength wasn't very relevant here bc of how good the spot looked

I know if he calls he will likely have big cards and i can take the pot down when he misses 65-70 % of the time, i will have to x back some boards that connect with his range of course

I like that you're making an effort to look for good spots to 3! as it does not happen often in 1/2 games and can be quite profitable. I only have a limited experience as I've only been playing live for about a year now, but often times I find when a player at these stakes is willing to call a 3! they are often going to play for their stack and can be very sticky unless the board runs out with 4 cards to either a flush or straight. I'm not sure I would be wanting to make a light 3! with J5s. If I was going to make this play, I prefer K7s+ so that when you do hit that top pair, you won't be as worried about villain having the Q in this case. I believe that it is a good play to try from time to time but I would do it after you've developed more of a tight image as opposed to when just joining a table.

It probably should be a fold pre spot, but I definitely have been guilty of taking advantage of light 3! spots with some suited garbage before. The spots at 1/2 happen so infrequently that when the stars align for it to happen but my hand isn't quite what I want, I'll still do it. I'm not sure how bad it is, but whatever.

I'd probably go bigger though. While your 3-bet size is normally OK in that it's a 5x 3-bet vs. an open and a caller, the fact that it's a $7 open means your 3-bet will be small in absolute $$. I'd go $45 - $50, as if he opened $10.

Flop is good.

The weak turn bet doesn't necessarily mean he's weak, but more often than not these bets are not made with monsters. It's usually pricing in with a draw, a medium strength hand that doesn't know what else to do, or a dumb bluff. I think you have enough fold and raw equity to jam it.

On the river I just give up. You don't want to be blocking the flush draw when heroing.

???

1) How does your hand looking like TT+/AQ+ really matter? People don't like folding, and if they have a pretty hand and like to gamble/crack monsters & AA or don't like folding, they will call.

2) Your hand strength is extremely relevant. Unless you somehow knew you get 60%+ auto-folds here collective against two people, it's not irrelevant.

3) If he calls why does he likely have big cards. Why not 22-QQ? Or a SCs/gappers and suited broadways?

I get that you're trying to expand your 3b range and explore that. That's great. but overbluffing when 3-betting is almost never a good idea. Not because of theory/gto/optimal 3b frequencies but because it mostly ends in very -EV territory and another result of overbluffing 3b is high variance and sick swings. And most people simply don't raise enough, and most people don't fold enough as a direct result of that or just don't fold enough for whatever reason (e.g. LAGs IP).

If you squeeze J5s here, you're squeezing like 30-50% of hands in this spot w/ no real justification other than "oh seems like a good spot to apply pressure IP."

I'd by lying if I said I didn't go crazy with 3-bets at one point in my experimental phase and was massively overbluffing in certain positional dynamics, and donked off quite a number of stacks post. It taught me a lot about preflop ranges but what I got from that is in general, overbluffing in any spot is usually NOT the right approach unless you have sick reads they just massively overfold (which is extremely rare). This is supported by theory and is almost always what happens practice, IME and IMO. Take that for what it's worth.

id just ship turn too, ap fold

People aren’t thinking nor do they care what your hand looks like when you 3 bet. I watch old men coffee get paid off day after day after day. They even get paid off by guys who they play with regularly. I used to play super nit and never got respect when I 3 bet or bet flop after 3 betting. I don’t start 3 betting light at 1/2 until it’s obvious they are opening light or they show they have a fold button. You have to be super confident in their tendencies post to 3 bet J5s.

I think you are confusing passive with nit, these are not synonyms

I said this guy correlates his sizings with his hand strengths , meaning if opens to 12 or 15 then I have much less FE

I knew based on this read that he is folding pre very often as he did

the other V , however did not fold, but when looking to find 3! spots we should be first focusing on the openers range and attack that range

I'm not saying that this play was great by any means , im just explaining why i liked the spot so much , being OTB and seeing this pathetic range in front of me made me want to pull the trigger

damn yeah i was tanking on the turn too, thinking of shoving or calling

i knew this guy was a competent player, so i was thinking, why would he lead into me on a board that hits my 3! range really well? i think he knew if he checked i was just gonna shove and he would have to fold

it ended up being a ridiculous bluff...77

i thought he would fold this part of his range on the flop, maybe he had a read on me idk

also the open ender hit on the turn, really not a good turn for me , i was very confused when getting led into for such a small bet

Unless you know your opponent has at least close to a 55-60%+ FT3B (as in they truly fold 60%+ of their hands to a 3b in the long run and not just based off your observation of 2-10 hands where they got 3b), or in this case the probability of players both players folding pre is 60%+, imo the very first thing you should focus on when finding light 3b spots is your hand.

Nit and passive are somewhat synonyms in this context. Both raise a suboptimal % preflop and don't raise enough hands.

Just wow LOL....

Ott when he leads for 1/5 pot I'm not really taking him seriously. And unless I have proof someone is competent and I'm fairly sure he plays for a living, I'd take what they say with a grain of salt and assume they're just a mediocre/avg/above avg reg. Not that being in this category is a bad thing, statistically there are very few good regs % wise (assuming normal distribution blah blah and that most people fall within 1-2 standard deviations from the mean/avg). Honestly I was expecting something like 1010/99, Axhh, maybe AQ. Rarely ever do I expect two pair, and I don't see him flatting too many of the suited broadways pre except KQs. he never has QQ/JJ/KK obv

I'm curious as to what you think a passive player's raising range is in MP.

The goal of a light bet (raise, 3bet, 4bet, whatever) is to get a fold and take the pot. Any time there is more than 1 villain in the hand, the odds of getting that fold goes down considerably. When you add in that one of the players has seen you spew before, your odds go down further. Not a good spot to 3bet light.

Now if you had been showing down only winners and your image is solid, then a light 3bet will work for you once every couple of hours.

i basically felt like MP's range was very capped, so he has small pairs, hands like jqos , weak A's , weak K's , all types of junk, i would be more specific but the point is that i thought he couldn't have any premiums based on his play style

and when HJ flats the 7, I feel he is capped as well bc i know he likes to 3! often and he will with all his premiums so i can rule out TT+ and AQ+ at the very least

I mean isn't 77's just a fold OOP to a 3! pre ? his set mining odds are not even close to being there

I thought he had 9T and was milking me or a weird 2P but i guess he should be betting bigger with those hands?

it was weird bc he doesn't really have to go that big OTT with the SPR being so small , even after a tiny bet OTT im still getting 3 to 1 by the river

but yea you and some one else were saying this smallish sizing was weak and it definitely was lol ;

I think being out of my comfort zone a little may have caused me to not think to clearly , not used to playing J5 in a 3! pot

Yea this guy was raising pretty often, he was just passive post flop and i think raising partly from being bored, and i don't want to put him down lol but he wasn't a very good player and i had his number the entire session

so i think he is opening too many hands for sure, i felt it was my duty to punish him

as far as hand strength, it would be nice to have more playability , i do think that it is not the most important factor if we are 3! bluffing bc we should be focusing on what % of the time this bet will get through and yield out right profitability

without hud stats and limited info at the table , very hard to prove mathematically here, but i feel MP is folding > 70 % of his range, and i guess i would say HJ would be folding about 55% of his range, i think HJ's range is actually stronger here

Playability is extremely important though because you are usually going to have to play a flop.