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Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss?

09-04-2018 , 11:25 PM
I think its close here. I play against regs who always 3bet AK but never follow through with a bluff when they whiff the flop. Are they spewing money?

The game type is usually loose passive with Villains defending against 3bets with all of their preflop raising range. Post Flop is pretty loose and stationy as well...
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-04-2018 , 11:34 PM
Like all things, it depends. If AK is ahead of their opening range and they are postflop calling stations, then a 3-bet/check down strategy can still be better than just calling pre. It's probably more profitable to bet AK on the right missed flops, even against stationy opponents. It will still be the best hand some % of the time on missed flops, so it's not a pure bluff. Equity denial and charging draws is still a big reason for betting, not just to fold out weaker pairs.

They probably aren't playing it optimally, but given how low stakes normally plays, they are probably doing better than if they just flatted. Of course if they are telegraphing their hand that obviously, then you can bluff them relentlessly by calling their 3-bets wider and then pummeling them when they check small flops.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-04-2018 , 11:36 PM
In the game type that you're talking about, it seems like cbets wouldn't be profitable if they were done frequently. That, in addition to cbets becoming a very standard play (even in board that completely miss the cbettors range) I feel like a double barrel has kind of become the new Cbet. All in moderation though, and being able to identify the game type you're in.

As for AK and the mandatory 3!... It isn't a mandatory, or even close. People overvalue AK almost as often as they do sc's. In position, against certain opponents, all that comes into play. If they're 3! Every time, they're losing more there than in any continuation bet.

To be clear, I don't have a problem opening AK, but 3! Needs to be based on villain and their opening range. If villain only opens AA or KK, would you consider 3! Mandatory?
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-05-2018 , 04:21 AM
What is your 3 betting range if you choose to flat or simply fold AK? It should be close to a mandatory 3bet. You can still dump it if you get 4bet. Also the odds of running into AA or KK is less than 5% when holding AK.

I would also advise you to open up your 3betting range if players are defending their entire opening ranges vs 3bets and firing away when you hit it.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-05-2018 , 07:09 AM
If folks will not fold any of their opening range to your in position 3bets AND they're opening a wide range AND they're 100bb+ deep then you should be 3betting a wider than usual merged (all value) range e.g. 99+ AQ+ BWs A5s-A2s T9s-76s. The key is to get into sizeable pots, heads-up against weak players and learn how to maximally exploit them. Every player is different so there's no one-size-fits-all rule for playing AK when you 3bet and miss flop. You don't even want to be thinking primarily about your specific hand in these situations but instead considering villain's call-3bet range vs your 3bet range on this board, figuring out what both your and villain's postflop ranges would look like IF they were balanced, identifying how V is unbalanced and then exploiting the f*** out of him. Much easier said than done obviously but that's poker!

Out of position facing tight EP opens I'm happy to have no 3betting range provided the flop isn't going 4-way+

On the button facing a very tight EP open with no callers I may sometimes also have no 3betting range or a very tight one like KK+ AKs.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-05-2018 , 08:06 AM
If you are gonna 3 bet AK you have to be willing to follow up with a healthy C-bet percentage, even when you whiff the flop- cause if not i believe it can certainly be suboptimal to 3 bet AK.

You will whiff the flop 2 out of 3 times with AK, wich is the majority of the time. Just check and give up is way to weak/tight, and it also makes you alot easier to read for any player that pays attention- because when you do bet the flop or turn in a 3 bet pot you always have it. Pretty transparent pattern to fall into over time. So your overall game approach is benefitting from C- bet bluffing some with AK,it makes you harder to play against,more difficult to read.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-05-2018 , 12:38 PM
We shouldn't blindly c-bet. We should choose our spots, depending on the board, the players, and our position.

Is the pot multiway? Then we shouldn't even think about c-betting our air. We should be more inclined to c-bet dry flops than wet ones, simply because wet flops connect better to villain continuing ranges than dry ones. Is the villain a station? Then only bet for value. Are they fit-or-fold? C-bet them relentlessly.

If we check the flop, with what other hands are we checking? Are we protecting our checking range with sufficient strength?
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-05-2018 , 01:12 PM
Never cbetting AK is spewing money and it's a poor strategy against observant opponents.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-05-2018 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodybuilder32
I think its close here.
It's lightyears from being close. If you're gonna shut it down if you miss, why are you 3betting? Also it's not about making a "bluff" cbet trying to take down the pot. It goes beyond just a cbet since you need a plan for the entire hand from preflop to the river. This is 2018.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-06-2018 , 03:55 AM
The way the question is phrased essentailly makes it out to be, "Should we do the right thing preflop even if we're going to do the wrong thing postflop?"
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-06-2018 , 06:21 AM
Unless we are literally going to bet 100% of the time we hit top pair and check fold 100% of the time we don't then yes it is. Straight up equity wise AK is over 50% against most ranges and then you can play poker.

This is a bit like asking is it profitable to 3bet JJ if we are never going to put another $ in the pot when we see a Q, K or A flop or is it profitbale to call an open with TJs if we fold every time we dont flop a straight or flush.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-06-2018 , 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalRumble
Unless we are literally going to bet 100% of the time we hit top pair and check fold 100% of the time we don't then yes it is. Straight up equity wise AK is over 50% against most ranges and then you can play poker.

This is a bit like asking is it profitable to 3bet JJ if we are never going to put another $ in the pot when we see a Q, K or A flop or is it profitbale to call an open with TJs if we fold every time we dont flop a straight or flush.
No, its not nearly the same thing. If you dont understand why, then i dont know where to start really.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote
09-06-2018 , 04:35 PM
Unfortunately, there is no correct answer to your specific query. There are spots to 3! AK and others to just flat (despite what anyone says, yes u CAN flat a raise with AK).

Same thing goes for c-betting. Will depend a lot upon (1) position, (2) # of opponents, (3) board texture, and (4) your current image. Extreme examples:

C-bet when: You are HU or 3 way, IP, on a board of J72 rainbow, when you are a winner in the current session with these players, close to 100%.

Don't c-bet when: You are multi-way, OOP, on a board of 765ss, if you have been losing in the current session.

Anything in between is balanced. Study away from the table and experiment at the table and you will figure out the +EV situations vs the -EV situations.
Is 3-betting AK even profitable if we don't c-bet when we miss? Quote

      
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