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Old 06-01-2014, 10:21 PM   #1
JPeezy55
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AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

Foxwoods 2/5 NL, Saturday night about 11 p.m.

Hero (MP): Early 30s, white, just back from a dinner break. Before that was on a semi-heater and has run $500 buy-in up to $1,300ish. Likely perceived as on the tight / snug side.

V1 (EP): Late 20s/early 30s, white, has been drinking beer most of the session. Opening ~80% of hands to $20-$30. Seems to play straightforward postflop. Also seems to respect my game as he's folded to my 3-bets pre-flop a few times. $700.

V2 (CO): 40-50s white guy with a beard. Seems fairly straightforward and not too sophisticated. Playing $1100, but mentioned he's stuck for the day.

Pre-flop Action: V1 opens to $30, Hero re-pops to $105 with AT. V2 calls quickly. V1 calls after some thought.

Heading to the flop: V2's cold-call scares the crap out of me. I've never seen it and I basically translate it as QQ, KK, AA, or AK. So the plan is to basically shut it down unless I flop gin.

Flop ($322): J98 V1 bets $125.

What's your action / plan for the hand (if it involves anything other than folding)?

Last edited by JPeezy55; 06-01-2014 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Added pot size on flop
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:49 PM   #2
tread_lightly
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

Interesting hand.

If V2 is aware of V1 opening frequency I think his coldcalling range to your 3bet is wider than the one you mentioned.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:59 AM   #3
sheled007
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

im thinking check-raise dependig on SPR of villian
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:22 AM   #4
sheled007
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

flat
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:29 AM   #5
QuadJ
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

This strikes me as one of those boards where it looks like you flopped well at first glance but it is deceptive and your not actually that strong or in that good of a situation. This is very dependent on V1's range here and how V2 is going to play the hand though.

Any idea what V1's range for donking here is? I'm assuming he has more then just a weak pair if he is donking into two opponents after the strong preflop action. I would guess his range is JX+/TX+ and a few big flush draws. On V2's side, if his range is as tight as you say he will have a lot of hands that can raise flop. If he is wider, that probably puts more middle pairs in his range and actually hits this flop harder. Counting your outs against the range of possible hands is hard. There are nightmare cases where you need runner/runner to do better then chop the pot. More likely you have 6 or 8 straight outs (which may be chops) and could have another 3 if an ace is good.

It is very unlikely you have the best hand, your squeezed, effective stacks are small and may not have many outs. If I was fairly sure V2 was going to fold, then hero's situation on outs looks a lot better and I might call or raise. If that isn't clear, then I'm just folding.
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Old 06-02-2014, 01:56 PM   #6
JPeezy55
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

Anyone play it different pre? I wanted to isolate in position with value but given that V1 to me a few times, that may not have been the best play. Then again, I didn't really want to play AT 6-handed out of position against everyone except V1.
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:20 PM   #7
dgiharris
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPeezy55 View Post
Foxwoods 2/5 NL, Saturday night about 11 p.m.

Hero (MP): Early 30s, white, just back from a dinner break. Before that was on a semi-heater and has run $500 buy-in up to $1,300ish. Likely perceived as on the tight / snug side.

V1 (EP): Late 20s/early 30s, white, has been drinking beer most of the session. Opening ~80% of hands to $20-$30. Seems to play straightforward postflop. Also seems to respect my game as he's folded to my 3-bets pre-flop a few times. $700.
You're leveling yourself with the bold. If someone is opening with an 80% range, then he should be folding to your 3-bets 90% of the time because the standard 2/5nl 3-betting range is going to crush his garbage 80% open range. I guarantee you he's not folding JJ/QQ, AQs, AK to your 3-bets because he "respects" your game.

No. He's folding his 86o and 96s type garbage because he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar and it's an easy preflop fold. Reason I mention this is because if we have an over inflated sense of our image then we can incorrectly assume we have more fold equity then we really do.

If V has been folding to our 3-bets but then calls a fairly significant 3-bet for $105, what does that say about his range? We also have to take into account that V2 flatted our 3-bet. So V2's range is going to be JJ-AA. Now, it's counter intuitive but BECAUSE V2 flatted this should encourage V1 to call with a "semi" wide range. I think V1's range can be as wide as 87s - AKs, T8s - AQs as well as 88-QQ.

It's counter intuitive, but I'm more worried about V1 in this spot than I am V2. Assuming V1 is competent, he knows V2 is nutted with JJ+ like always. So I can't see V1 donking here with something like KJ.

I think QuadJ has nailed this.

This is one of those situations that at first looks like a good situation for us, but on second thought is actually a horrible situation for us. I can't see V1 donking this spot with a weak sauce TPMK type hand and I think he has a ton of combo draws in his range like JTs, T9s, or has 2p or flopped the gin straight.

V2 most likely has an overpair and we face a halfway decent possibility he raises the flop.

initially, my first inclination was that we would have the odds to draw to one street, but because V1's range is wider and contains Tx hands, that cuts into our equity significantly, not to mention we are squeezed between V1's wider range and V2's likely JJ+.

Because of this, I think optimal line here is a fold. It's just an RIO situation. Would be much better if we have AT or if we were heads up vs V1. But we aren't so I think best line is to just let this one go.

We'd have to avoid too many landmines here, so I'm fine just letting it go.
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Old 06-02-2014, 05:57 PM   #8
Kyuubimon
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Re: AT 3-bet vs. maniac and cold-caller

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPeezy55 View Post
Anyone play it different pre? I wanted to isolate in position with value but given that V1 to me a few times, that may not have been the best play. Then again, I didn't really want to play AT 6-handed out of position against everyone except V1.
Yes, I would definitely play it different. Yes, V-1 is a juicy fish, but his stacks are dwindling fast. If there was no indication he intended to reload or top off, I wouldn't be too eager here. It would be a different matter if he were well stacked. It's tempting to iso, but MP is too early, as you have to get that iso raise through a bunch of players, one of whom just might cold call, or what's even worse, repop behind. AT-off would be good to play if you were certain to get it all by its lonesome with V-1. It would be a different matter if it were suited, but it's not.

Pre, I given the positions, I would just flat the donk's open and see what happened.

Quote:
Heading to the flop: V2's cold-call scares the crap out of me (As well it should!). I've never seen it and I basically translate it as QQ, KK, AA, or AK. So the plan is to basically shut it down unless I flop gin.

Flop ($322): J98 V1 bets $125.
You failed to flop gin. All you have here is a back door to the flush. OESDs that can be completed with a single card in the hand are horrible. Only an off-suit seven gives you the nutz, and if you get any action when it drops off, the only likely winner in the hand is the rat hole. Hitting an ace or queen is just likely to get you into even more trouble, and a ten probably counterfeits you and completes one or more "accidental" straights.

Quote:
What's your action / plan for the hand (if it involves anything other than folding)?
Sorry, but folding is exactly what I'd do here.

"Also seems to respect my game as he's folded to my 3-bets pre-flop a few times".

Yes, he's likely a donk, but don't over estimate him. How do you know he respects your game? How do you know if he even noticed your game? These alcohol addled donks don't really notice much of anything. His thinking could be no deeper than: "I can has Lay-dees, I rayze!" Yes, he "respected" your other 3-bets, but, this time, he didn't. You are in an ideal situation to find yourself caught between the tigers. You can find better spots than that.
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:37 PM   #9
beauvanlaanen
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just call pre. check flop
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