This is a hand I played a few hours ago at commerce 3/5 NL. For those who don't know commerce doesn't allow you to buy in full stacked under 5/10 limits. For 3/5 $200 is the max buy in.

About 5 minutes before this hand I had a hand where I raised AT in EP got called by the BB, chked back KT5, then bet turn and river large like 70 into 90. BB tank called and seemed shocked at my holding and mucked saying nice bet.

Anyways, here's the hand.

I'm utg (~$650) with TT and raise to 25, 4 callers (utg+2, CO, SB, BB). I have everyone covered, their stacks range from 2-600.

utg+2 is a girl who looks in her early 20s, she's alright looking, maybe a 6/10. But as you LLSNL dudes know a 6/10 chick at your table feels like a 9/10.
She's played pretty tight, only raised a couple times in the two hours she's been at the table. Pretty sure she's been card dead. Only shown down like 2 hands. One was A6o which she overlimped on the button. The other was a A9dd on a 9523x board where she led the flop 4 way in a raised pot, check/tank called a shove $100 into $120 OTT HU and was good. (was a super easy call IMO)

CO is a huge fish, plays a lot of junk and is a big station. Doesn't seem to bet unless he has something.
Flop comes Q52dd, checks around.

Turn is an offsuit 4, checks to me, I bet out $75, girl raises $135 more, folds around to me. I instantly look at her and say 'I hear girls never bluff' then a few seconds later I say 'but this kinda looks bluffy to me' I tank for probably a couple minutes, maybe more, and then put her all in for an extra $120.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I crazy??? I might be IDK.

Here's my thought process: This girl has been paying attention the entire time she's been at the table (2 hours). Sure she's been on her phone a little, but for the most part her eyes have been on the felt. She definitely was watching the hand I played 5 min ago where I chked back MP and then bet twice. I didn't have that much information on her as she had only showndown twice and only really played one significant sized pot. She had been calling preflop raises a bit, probably slightly more than she should, though less than your avg 3/5 player. But basically she seemed to me like she was at least somewhat of a serious player.
When it checked around to her on the flop the only player left to act was the fish described above, he wasn't likely to bet unless he had a Q and I think she knew that, I really didn't think she would check a set.
So when she raises me on the turn she's basically saying she has a set of 4s, or A3s if she calls that pre. Or she might've been bad enough (I think it's bad) to check a set on the flop).
When I bet the turn, my range looks really capped, especially after the last hand. Sure I could have QQ once in a while, but for the most part I'm capped at JJ, and I think this is pretty easy for an aware player to see.
I basically decided that there was a small chance she was pure bluffing, and a large chance she was semibluffing, and so I put my stack in. This might have been a terrible play, thats what I'm wondering. I will post the results (which are quite interesting) later.

[ ] crazy hand
[x] should have bet flop

Really not a crazy hand by any means. I bet flop here most of the time. You're bet looks kinda of spewy/bluffy as well.

This

I know I definitely should've bet the flop I normally do with an underpaor just got paranoid/thought the SB might've given something off when the flop came out/he'd been suspicious of me all night. It would've made the hand much easier to play though. If the flop gets raised it's a much easier fold. Now that I rep a weak value range it's much more of an ugly spot.

terrible. she hit a strong hand and you are dead

she friggin nearly check folded a9 on the turn remember???

easy fold

it was probably a testosterone induced bet. would u do the same if it wa some tight guy raising?

I tanked for 2+ minutes, because it was a woman, if it was a tight dude i would've tanked for ~10 seconds, for the better or the worse, i guess according to you for the worse

no fold equity :\

Checking this 5 way is definitely better than betting. Betting into 4 people OOP with a mid pair seems pretty bad.

As played I really would like better reads that she can pull off a bluff like this. Her line makes no sense and if she's as observant as you say, she should know your range is capped at hands weaker than top pair, but still, people generally don't do this. I don't mind your play though.

Thank you. I've been on and off the forums since 2011 (on different accounts) and it's always seemed to me that the majority of LLSNL posters are really bland, for lack of a better word. They always give the same advice about every hand: bet/fold bet/fold, he raised he has the nuts, don't bluff, etc. But that's basically the definition of a weak TAG player. I'm not trying to be a dick and I'm not referring to everyone in LLSNL at all, simply the majority of posters that I see. And, for the most part, their simple strategy is the way to go when playing live low limits, but a lot of the posts on here are unique spots, otherwise they wouldn't be posted.

Anways, after I moved all in she sat there for about 10 seconds and then called. I thought: she must be on a draw, no diamond no diamond no diamond. The river came an offsuit 10 and I instantly flipped my hand over. She sorta tightened her jaw with an eek like look and then mucked her hand.
The whole table was shocked at my play, the SB started mumbling about how she definitely had a set. I was at the time certain he was wrong and she had a missed draw. But then after about two minutes she calmly said, I had pocket 5s. At this point the SB went off on a bit of a mild rant saying that was possibly the worst hand he's ever seen played. I've never been pissed off about being berated, especially by a player who I had just owned on a previous hand and I felt I was better than. But somehow there I really wanted to talk back, and tell him how he's a basic-level thinker who knows nothing about poker. Though I didn't exactly know how to phrase it at the time so I didn't really say much. I sorta said I'm not sure she really had 55, but I didn't really want to go further than that because I knew there was a decent chance she had 55 and I would be coming off as such a dick after 2 outering her in a $700 pot.
Do you think she really had 55? I guess that's a difficult question to answer when you're not at the table, but wouldn't you say 99% of players show their set on the river. I mean, it takes an inhuman amount of discipline to muck that after being 2 outered by a "donkey shove". Also she thought for 10 seconds and knew I had a marginal hand (I pretty much told her before I moved in). That would almost be considered a slowroll and she did not seem like someone who would do that. Anyways, I know this isn't really poker discussion I'm just really curious if she actually had it or not. Because this situation I think really is results oriented.

betting flop is bad imo

Id say 55 is true, gotta some psycho to wait 2 min and then lie. Whats the point of that anyway. I always muck facedown if that helps you.

Not that many are actually unique, a lot are beginner mistakes. And a good chunk of the rest are interesting only because hero did something stupid and got themselves into a strange bad situation that shouldn't happen.

Naturally there is no way to be sure now, but 55/22 seem the most likely given the way the hand played. I think your projecting a bit too much of your own thinking/play style onto villain here. A tight and somewhat passive player isn't raising turn with a draw unless they have some monster. AdKd or 4d3d are really the only two hands that might go that way even if she thinks your bluffing. Plus, the quick call is much more likely with a set then a draw, she would probably agonize over the draw a bit before moving in.

Checking this flop with a set is also a lot more likely then you say. You sound very aggressive, and for that sort of player checking flop with a low set would be silly. All kinds of worse hands will call at least one bet. A tight player is going to fold out anything worse then QX a lot when they bet here and diamonds are the only bad cards on turn. If you had a diamond draw you would usually bet flop, so even the diamonds wouldn't worry her that much. Checking and letting you take a stab on turn is the most profitable line as this gets you to bet air a lot. She wouldn't just flat the turn bet though, because the 4 opens up low draws and your not likely to put big money in on river once she calls turn unless you do draw out.

You got owned lol

Betting flop for 50-65 is probably gunna be your best line, just makes villains define their ranges more, bc even when it's checked thru and the turn is safe your still in a guessing situation.

Let's back track for a second, so the two hands you have seen from her at showdown were A6 and A9. First off A9 is super marginal but A6 is awful so I would probably classify her as a weak tight fish who is not a thinking player.

Let's go back to your read, she's been playing super snug without much if any aggression. She tanked with top top in a spot where you thought it was a 1 chip snap call.

So now to the turn action, she has put in 210 of the 330 in front of her and you think she's capable of bluffing here??? I'm sorry but there might be a total of 3 players in the 2/5 Dallas player pool who are remotely capable of a semi bluff like this.

We already know that AX is in her range, while I don't expect to be shown a flopped set (maybe a little more often than you think actually...not really a terrible play if she thinks your firing most turn cards) or a naked Q very often in this spot...I would expect 44, 45 and A3 at least 70% if not way more. Weak passive players do not all of a sudden wake up and spaz raise on the TURN over 2/3 of the money in front of them.

Just a spot where you over leveled yourself and thought she was better/more thinking player for some reason when you had all the evidence in front of you that pointed otherwise but you chose to ignore.

I agree that this hand isn't especially crazy, and I believe villain had 55. QuadJ is right, too, that her failure to bet the flop isn't all that bad; and, good or bad, it isn't all that rare. Sitting there with a set in a multi-way pot, lots of villain are waiting for someone else to get things going for them.

-EF

Most of the advice here is geared towards hands played against recreational players. You take bet/folds lines because most recreational players flat call with their draws and the don't value bet light. Therefor - if you get raised by one of these types of players on a Q high board while holding pocket J's you're most likely not good and should fold.

Now, if there's a crazy aggro player who's raising all of his draws then there's a case for calling them down lighter or even 3betting for value with 1 pair type hands.

Also, if you're posting hands against thinking players and you have some level 3 thinking going on it's going to be hard for a lot of players on here to give you great advice. However, it's probably a good idea to stay out of a good thinking players way.


As for your hand.... Your line makes no sense but her line makes less sense. IMO her range is either sets or draws/air. I don't see her calling preflop with cards that make a straight or 2 pair. I don't see her raising with top pair based on previous streets. Based on this, I don't mind your play but a lot of the time she will end up with some weird hand that she played terribly that beats JJ.

checking the flop with a set is a good play because I'm an aggro player? What about the 3 other players in the pot/ the chance they have a draw? I agree that I'm not likely to be drawing, but the other players can be.

Also, the river call wasn't quick. It was 10 seconds which is relatively slow considering the pot odds she is getting. If she had a set, it was techinically a slowroll. Not that I or anyone else would get pissed off by that (as it's nothing near the types of slowrolls u see donks make on a daily basis). But it would be a slowroll as she is intentionally taking time before calling, even if it is only 10 seconds. Also, I dont think I mentioned this yet but after the hand she said something to me about how there was no reason for her to bet the flop as there were no draws out there...Q52dd...definitely draws lol so she either misread the board or had 76xx and wasn't paying attention to the flop texture. But yeah I've thought about this a lot and I do think I made a somewhat poor play. Though as it turned out I kinda think she didn't have it, though definitely could've had it much more often than I thought she could.

With that many villains it is bad, I'm just pointing out that mediocre and bad tight players do it more then they should because they are afraid of blowing people out of a hand when they have something strong. Heads up against an aggro player it's actually a good play, but with that many villains in the hand there is a good chance somebody has the flush draw or a low straight draw, and odds are good somebody has a QX hand that will call at least one bet.

When youre HU and ship the turn she is snap calling all sets in mili seconds. She to me apperaed to have Q9-KQ or pssible A5 A2 A4ss etc. She is also snapping here with AQ.

So her pause tells me either eh I have a q and my kicker may not be good, OR I have A2 A4 A5 and may be agsinst a Q but I have 10 clean outs so I call.

I love the stacks going in ott with my reasoning above.

This.

If she did have 55 - and she was somewhat thinking, then I would have expected her to bet with the station behind her.

There is $310 in the pot and she needs to call off $120. Is she really thinking of folding 55 here? When she raises the turn, she's pretty much committed