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Old 09-11-2017, 01:39 AM   #1
randomcards
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3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Sunday night 3/5

Table is pretty tight/solid... 3 super super old man nitty types never playing a hand. 4 pretty TAG reg types, villain and myself.

Villain - Is to my immediate left, we bought in near the same time and he has run a stack of 300 to 2k+ in 3 hours through running the table over. I honestly can't tell if he is a genius or terrible (I lean the latter but haven't been proven out yet). He has won some huge hands, and won a lot of other hands through tremendous aggression, frequent raises on all streets of many X higher than standard raises etc. Hasn't gotten caught. He was raising probably 1/3 of hands pre-flop with a fair number of 3 bets if somebody raised first (which most players stopped doing). Seems like the type of player who feels the need to win every pot, but in fairness it is working for several hours.

Hero - Rec player traveling, wearing out of state football gear. Not having a great night thus far, in for 1k down a lot for a while but on $830 atm. I am probably viewed as the second most aggressive player at the table, although that isn't saying much as everybody is playing tight except for villain.

History - Villain and I have tangled in a few pots and he has been generally getting the better of me. 2 notable hands. First right after we both sat down he limped I raised 10 10 to $25 ($200 villain eff stack). Villain 3 bet to $120, I decided I liked my hand and and GII. Villain had 88 and binked a set to start his upward spiral.

Second major more recent hand I ran a bluff on a A8344 runout with K8 Villain raised PF, flop check around. I C/R a weakish bet from villain on the turn and then put out what I thought was pretty well timed bluff of $175 on the river turning my second pair into a bluff to try to get out 99-QQ type hands. Villain called with 99. I honestly can't tell if it was a great read or if he overvalued hands. I guess I'll eat humble pie and say he outplayed me there.


Onto the Hand


Pre-Flop

UTG limps
UTG + 2 limps
Hero limps with 32 (Stack $830)
Villain raises to 20 (Stack $2K+)
Everybody calls, 4 way to flop

I normally am a rare pre-flop limper, but I wanted to play pots with Villain and did not want to call a 3 bet if I opened the pot. Yes it is a spot I normally fold pre-flop in most games from MP. Once villain raises and 2 other callers, it is an easy call for $15 more into $65 closing the action.

Flop - ($85) - 343

Checks to villain who cbets $45
Folds to hero who raises to $125
Villain calls

Turn - ($315) - 5

Hero leads for $180
Villain raises to $520
Hero ???
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Old 09-11-2017, 02:07 AM   #2
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Alright so I'd say your villain isnt bad. He's probably not great, but is probably so active due to being on a combination of some rungood + his normal bluffing frequencies so it's making him seem like a legend at the table. That said, he may be on a little winners tilt thinking he can outplay everyone. For him to open preflop and call a x/r on this board just seems like a typical overpair. He's not going to 3bet the flop because that would obviously only get called by better and he knows this. However he can still keep ranges sorta wide by flatting your x/r and then assuming that his hand is good on the turn and just going with it. It's really hard for him to believe you have a 3 here so if he has JJ+ he probably thinks this is a value raise by jamming on you.

I'd just go ahead and punt and seem a little dejected by it which will sell the idea that you really have a hand like 99+ or even a flush draw.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:18 AM   #3
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

lolpre
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:43 AM   #4
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Easy fold pre.
So easy.
Every time.

Based on his play so far, how does he play his overpairs here?

How will he play AXhh here (which is a likely holding) since he's now got 2 overs, a gutterball, and a flush draw?

Odds are I'm going with the hand once I get here. Probably never getting here though.
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Old 09-11-2017, 09:45 AM   #5
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Be a smart-solid-LAG+ if you want to win in this game. You got to have super post flop skills in order to play the way I describe here.

Your wins at the showdown should be around 4 in 7 for about 3.5 hours of play and got to have about 10-11 wins without the showdown between flop and river in order for sure 100% to make money. There's no way around this math fact. You got to unbalance the scale that villains try to hit boards and things like that. I can't go in much details how is done because will be useless to the fact that the entire strategy is extremely difficult and complicated and not many people will be able to execute it anyway. I'm just giving you a hint: You got to play about 435 starting hands or 33% of the deck and got to raise preflop with all of them or call one raise if that's the case in order to see the flop and have 5 cards to work with. Of course you 3! or 4! with what you suppose to do that, you know .., but that's about it. I'm not going any further.

Last edited by outdonked; 09-11-2017 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:16 AM   #6
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Easy fold pre.
So easy.
Every time.

Based on his play so far, how does he play his overpairs here?

How will he play AXhh here (which is a likely holding) since he's now got 2 overs, a gutterball, and a flush draw?

Odds are I'm going with the hand once I get here. Probably never getting here though.
Villain had shown unmitigated aggression constantly throughout session. He had made large turn raises like this at least 5 times previously. The only time he got called he had top FH, however he is playing so aggressive it is obvious he is doing it quite wide and bluffing some.

I will say against this villain I was intentionally looking to play 32 type hands pre-flop for 4bb much more than I was looking to play AJo or KJo type hands.

I just got the situation I was after and then wasn't so sure I wanted it...

My first reaction was that villain would definitely make turn play with some overpairs and combo draws. But I also thought some of those he likely would have 3 bet the flop with.

Last edited by randomcards; 09-11-2017 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:24 AM   #7
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by outdonked View Post
Be a smart-solid-LAG+ if you want to win in this game. You got to have super post flop skills in order to play the way I describe here.

Your wins at the showdown should be around 4 in 7 for about 3.5 hours of play and got to have about 10-11 wins without the showdown between flop and river in order for sure 100% to make money. There's no way around this math fact. You got to unbalance the scale that villains try to hit boards and things like that. I can't go in much details how is done because will be useless to the fact that the entire strategy is extremely difficult and complicated and not many people will be able to execute it anyway. I'm just giving you a hint: You got to play about 435 starting hands or 33% of the deck and got to raise preflop with all of them or call one raise if that's the case in order to see the flop and have 5 cards to work with. Of course you 3! or 4! with what you suppose to do that, you know .., but that's about it. I'm not going any further.
I definitely play LAG at 2/5 and below and have been comfortably successful at that with 3+ years of sample size at those stakes (rec player plays probably 40 times a year).

I normally open 85%+ of the hands I intend to play preflop during most sessions. I will open a range probably 30% wider than the average 2/5 reg I have seen. This hand was interesting because having a wild aggro villain to my immediate left raising 1/3rd at least of pre-flop hands really changed pre-flop for me.

Since my sessions as a travelling rec player are always in different casinos, different dynamics, different players, I strive to play each session very differently based on what I think will be most effective for that specific session and villains.

It also puts me in interesting high variance turn and river places like this a lot lol!
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:33 AM   #8
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

I think you're adjusting backwards.

The trick isn't to play some super weird deceptive (and really unlikely to hit) hand so that you can finally bink huge and stack this guy.

The trick is to realize that, against this guy, your TPGK is worth a lot. Imagine in your K8 hand if you'd had AJ (or even A2).

Don't play 32s OOP against a likely raise. Wanting to play pots with V is great. But let's go into a gunfight with some form of gun.

I'd suggest tightening up a little bit (and tightening up towards hands more generally considered good -- big pairs, and big cards, not 32s) and then recognize that your overpair or TP or maybe even second pair is way gooder than it would be against a more normal player.

It's also worth seeing how he responds to 3b and 4b pre. If he doesn't defend enough, steal until he adjusts.

If he's raising wide and then defending wide, he simply has too many weak hands in pots with low SPR. Get low SPRs with TP-type hands and then commit. Don't bluff very often at all.

If he adjusts by defending too often and then getting aggro post, 3b & 4b pre a bit wider than normal and then let him try to move you off your made hands. Generally give up either pre or on the flop or not at all.

If he adjusts by calling and then playing fit/fold (obviously not for this V), steal after the flop.

I'm assuming you had already dropped your bluffing frequency once it became clear he was calling pretty wide.

You can still play speculative hands, assuming stacks are deep enough to allow enough back after the raise. You can probably even reduce the standard multipliers because V is more likely to stack off.

Figure out whether he's making calling errors or betting errors. Adjust your lines to exploit whichever he's worse at.
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Old 09-11-2017, 10:54 AM   #9
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

For how much you post, I'm surprised you took the time to read, let alone respond to one of outdonked's comments. Tighten up your 2p2 game OP.

I totally get wanting to change your game to exploit the fish flopping around beside you, but this is NOT how its done. You don't abuse an agro spewtard by limp calling napkins oop. You get as much money in PF with an equity edge vs his super wide range as you possibly can, and then buckle up and ride the variance train. The whole point is to make your post flop stack off decisions completely trivial. Open up your 4!/gii range, limp big pp/AK in ep with the hope he pops it, gets some callers and then shovel in a pile of chips and ffs seat change to his left, or at least not his immediate right. (debatable, you may be in a great seat, just need to use it properly)

As far as this hand goes I don't think I can fold, but do we really like any of the big hands these hole cards make? I hope that in game, if I ever got myself into this spot, I would take a deep breath, realize I'm spewing, fold, and wait for better cards to punish this guy. But I doubt it.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:30 AM   #10
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

I've played this hand against similar opponents. I honestly have no problem with it. However, now that you are here, you have to go with it given the dynamic between you and V and how the game has been playing. If your plan was to fold now, then don't play this hand pre-flop.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:20 PM   #11
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dude_174 View Post
......Tighten up your 2p2 game OP.
By tightening up you're not making money. Money don't come into your stacks by getting tight and folding or by playing tight and raising with your tight range. No. You make money by raising your villains when you spot the situation they put themselves in. You do that with one or your 33% of the deck hands. Don't you dream a tight range is the correct strategy. If you still think like that you obviously are still a beginner and in that case I'm not argue with you because you not gonna understand.

By folding alot and by playing only premium and good hands you're not making money. Here is an example of a play you may make being a tight player: You have K9o, K2s, 75o, 22, 33, Q8s, Q4s, T8o in the C/O and two villains come into the pot for a limp on your right. Your correct play is to raise 8xbb. Well, a tight player will never do that because he never in his life has ever played those hands outside of the big blind. A tight player may in the best case limp too with some of the above but will never raise and by limping along he hopes like every one else to flop. Well, the flop will disappoint all of you guys and someone will take the pot away with bottom pair. By limping along everybody lose $20/hour over the long run for the 3/5 game due to the rake plus some extra for tips. So, good luck of being a tight player. haha..haha
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:25 PM   #12
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Pre is beratably terrible. I'd drop you if I was backing you and you showed me this whole hh.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:27 PM   #13
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Sounds like we're trying to out-sLAG a lagrard. Not good. These are the best players to have at the table imo and the easiest to play against. Simply make a hand & get $ handed. Tighten up pre. I'd fold 32 twice pre. I'm not seeing flops with K8s either. Cicakman said it harshly, but I think we need to examine where money comes from in poker if we're playing this loose and adjusting improperly to villains.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:32 PM   #14
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomcards View Post
I will say against this villain I was intentionally looking to play 33/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?:23/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?: type hands pre-flop for 4bb much more than I was looking to play AJo or KJo type hands.
Why?
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Old 09-11-2017, 08:21 PM   #15
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

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I will say against this villain I was intentionally looking to play 32 type hands pre-flop for 4bb much more than I was looking to play AJo or KJo type hands.

It's a common fallacy that if someone is playing loose you should try to loosen up with them to take advantage of their looseness. It's like saying if someone is playing tight then you should play even tighter to have a range advantage over them. Hopefully he can recognize why this doesnt work.

My guess is that he feels hands like 32s will be more disguised when the money goes in than a hand like AJo. Thing is AJo will fare relatively well allin postflop vs a lag because despite what the lag may think of your range, if he has an OESD or something he's going to push it every time.

And you can still play an adjusted lag style if you are a natural lag even with other lags at the table. But 32s is simply too low. I might call OTB in a multiway pot or complete the BB on occasion with it, but never limping from EP with the hopes that i get raised just so that I can flat OOP and work some magic postflop.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:29 AM   #16
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

If Villain was thinking at all he would know this board is likely to hit someone's Limp calling range and wouldn't be value raising turn with any over pairs because he is likely to be up against exactly the type of hand you have. Would expect Villain to get it in on the flop with his FD + Over's type hands given your dynamic.
I'd fold pre (lol at limping ever) and tighten up vs Villain.

As played I think the turn is a fold.
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Old 09-12-2017, 03:00 AM   #17
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Ok so obviously this has devolved into a range discussion.

As best I can tell, villan may be good, and youve mistaken a good lag who is running people off of hands as a bad player. Its of course possible he isnt good, but most good LAGs have the feeling of unmitigated aggression.

First, villan has direct position on you. I personally would want to be across the table from him, and would change seats to do so. This would cause many of his 3 bets to be against my tight EP range, and would let me squeeze him and those in between from BB and btn. Without moving, another option is to play a reasonably tight (8-15% based on position) range from everything except button thats 100% limps (i HATE limping. This is a time id consider doing it), and then aggressively 3 bet big and for value (depending on how often he is 3 betting, especially if it seems equally as wide as his raising range, you could just put in a raise with that 8-15% range and aggressively 4 bet, which would probably make you even more money.). You will very likely need to get into a leveling war with the guy preflop to slow him down (or not slow him down and eventually either bleed him out or stack him depending on how he is reacting to your preflop reraises)

As correctly noted by others, the way to beat a player like this isnt to play a deceptive range and hit a monster, if the guy is decent, his range becomes pretty strong once all the money goes in (yes it will include bluffs as well, but also a lot of value). You will need to battle with medium strength hands as well as play back at him with strong draws. You need to figure out what part of his betting range is far too weak (such as cbets, turn raises, from the button, whatever, try to figure out his habits for when he puts the money in, and where he is getting out of line. Most people just seem to think "this guy is aggro" when playing against me, and will do weird stuff like a light 3! vs my very tight UTG raise because i am way out of line from the button, and thats an error in reading a player) and start raising it (both for value and as a bluff). Unfortunately to beat a good LAG often includes stacking off in ways that make most players uncomfortable (either with junk, or with less than a super premium hand).

Also, one thing thats concerning to me is your HH description. "i decided i liked my hand and GII" I would have to assume the hand you played here is a major factor in his perception of you.

The bluff you ran was complete garbage, and is much more interesting than the hand you posted. I wpuld be check calling turn and river all day on that board. V checked flop means he probably has a pair, thats what gets checked back, he bets turn, so most likely v betting himself with 8x, but also couldve had air he checked back, river id have planned to value bet the 8, but the 4h is such a good bluffing card for him, i wouldve probably checked to let him go ahead and bet his air for me since he has near zero flushes here cuz im sure he bets 100% of his good draws on the flop. Obviously he had 99 so youdve called turn and he probably wouldve checked behind river and won, but he has 8x far more often here.

OTTH. fold pre (dont limp this), i guess id prolly call his raise after limping... Good flop raise, he will 3! you wiith a lot of hands, any two hearts, 56, big overpairs, etc, and likely will call with primarily 3s, 4s, gutshots, backdoor draws with big overcards, and mid PPs. 5s is a decent card for him, and his bet is a bit scary id expect him to have AsXs, 55, 67 a lot here, but he could also be bluffing with something like 4x or a mid pp that he thinks is dead, or 66, or even 77 for the gutshot. Despite V being a wide range lag, youre not in some wonderful spot to stack off because if he is decent, he can successfully manipulate his range for deception in situations like this. Not that youre making a killing in this spot but its an easy ship, and youre hoping to see AsXs. I wouldnt expect to see complete air, but if i did, id reevaluate the guy as being somewhat of a maniac as you originally described.
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Old 09-12-2017, 03:18 AM   #18
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

post the K8s hand. it´s most likely much more interesting than this...

hand in question you just made an atrocious play preflop, hit gin and have a no brainer stack off as played ott.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:31 AM   #19
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

All in

hero and/or villain are both described as showing up with some weird hands / making spewy plays so shoving trips on this texture can't be a big mistake

Calling with the intention of calling all/most rivers is also interesting but without a better understanding of villain I prefer shove
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:34 AM   #20
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
All in

hero and/or villain are both described as showing up with some weird hands / making spewy plays so shoving trips on this texture can't be a big mistake

Calling with the intention of calling all/most rivers is also interesting but without a better understanding of villain I prefer shove
that´s kinda pointless, we´d have 170 left in a 1350 pot or so...
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:35 PM   #21
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Quote:
Terrible Pre Flop Play
Ok I'll bow to consensus lol!

Let me ask a related question then regarding this hand (and will post results and the K8 hand next.

With this dynamic EVERY other of the 7 players at the table you did as described, tightened up dramatically, tried to make big pre-flop 4 bets that villain got away from, sometimes lost to villain with big pairs, sometimes won small pots with AA/KK type hands.

I am willing to be convinced, but is not intuitive that the appropriate way to react to said villain is to put myself into a pool of 8 other players playing the exact same way and hoping my number gets drawn and I get to take villain down.

It would seem there must be some sort of other adaptation (and obviously everybody doesn't think limp/calling 32 is it) to put myself in a better position against this villain than the rest of the table who all just got uber tight.

Thoughts?
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:42 PM   #22
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

No
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:35 PM   #23
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

if he´s opening way too wide you should loosen your valuerange as well, meaning you can 3bet him wider than your normal range for pure value, QJs+, KJo+, 88+, stuff like that.
he´s got a way too weak range overall if he is that active, so optimally get in pots with him with a looser than normal but slightly tighter range than him.

However, you just passively limp/called the worst hand ever out of position. that´s bad against anyone, but even worse against a wide range.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:17 PM   #24
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Results...


I shoved turn (only had like $150 behind so calling didn't seem to do anything) villain snap called.

River was 9

Villain QQ I would assume he thought I was on a draw or pair + draw hand and he was trying to crush me off it on the turn.



The K8 Hand

Since several people asked here is the HH on this hand. I might not have exact $ amounts but should be close.

Villain and Hero are both $1k+ deep

Pre-Flop
3 limps
Hero completes from small blind K8 - no real interest in raising or even playing this hand probably unless I crush the flop (note this changed later lol)

Villain raises to $25 from BB

1 Limper (super fit or fold old man nitty) calls

Hero calls (I am now happy to play K8s completing action preflop against said villain let's see what happens deep, planning on being pretty fit or fold, note how my plan keeps changing haha)

Flop - $85 - A83
Hero checks (was with 100% of my range here)

Villain checks (somewhat surprising he was cbetting 50-75% freq)

Old man nit checks

Turn - 4
Hero checks

Villain bets $40

Old man nit folds

Hero raises to $115

Villain calls

I felt on the turn there was a really good chance I was good but was also almost positive villain was going to bet every turn card.

Old man nit was still in the hand and he could easily have a sticky ace which is why I didn't lead.

Once villain bet $40 (weakish bet compared to other spots) seemed like a good spot to C/R. I am ahead a lot, take down the pot against a lot of unpaired broadway type hands, and feel I can set up the river to bluff if he has any non set pair.

River - $310 - 4 completing the flush
Hero leads for $175
Villain tank calls with 99 to win

My plan on turn was to barrel most rivers. With villain's tendencies I felt he would bet an A 100% of the time on the flop (maybe check AA, but preflop he would have sized bigger), so thought really good chance he was on 99-JJ and maybe 8x. Felt like I had a lot more flushes and Ax A4 A3 type hands in my range so seemed like a good spot to bluff 2 barrels after the flop checked around to push out hands that had my K8 slightly beat.

I was wrong and lost. It happens lol...
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:22 PM   #25
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Re: 3/5 vs aggro - is this what I was waiting for?

Turn c/r is so terrible in K8 hand. Not sure why you're turning showdown value into a bluff vs a spaz.
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