Reads: whole table has been playing very loose and aggressive, players are decent, stacks are deep and players like to push aggressively in marginal spots and call super wide preflop to try and stack people off.

Example hand earlier: UTG opens 25,1 caller, I 3! to 70 with KK and get THREE! Callers behind lol.... Flop is AKQr I bet 250 into 340 and everyone snap folds claiming small PPs. Table is loose ��

OTTH: Hero limps early with A9, mid raises to 25, SB calls, BB calls, hero calls. 4-way flop.

Flop: (~100) AK9c Checks thru to ORiginal raiser who bets 50, SB raises to 140, BB cold calls 140, Hero!!?? Stacks are roughly (550) deep.

Calling seems horrible, almost criminal on this wet of a board, and if we raise to 400-450 were absolutely commited so is this a standard stuff or fold? Or is folding even possible? Is shoving terrible....this is actually a pretty tough spot for me. Holla at a balla with your thoughts...

in your example hand, your 3b with KK was far too small

in the hand of the thread, you cannot limp A9s in EP at an aggressive table.. this is a fold preflop.. as played, id probably call after limping and getting that many callers also.. but its a clear fold preflop to begin with.

this board is NOT wet. raising is your worst option. granted, there's only 11 combos that beat you (5 sets and 6 AK), but almost nothing worse is going to call a raise.

That's not a cold call.

The problem with the hand is the guy behind you. He might have KK. I don't know what you mean by "is folding even possible." What is that even supposed to mean? If, as you say, all these players are decent, I would let go.

I can understand why, at a superficial level, you let the action go past the first time, but I'm pretty sure that's an error.

vert der ferk are you guys talking about?

I don't think that the 70 with kings was far too small and that is a cold call.

As played, with a LAGgy table, yup, ship it.

Edit: But to clarify, calling is an option too, this isn't completely polarized to ship or fold. Folding is very tight and the preflop action does have hands that are well ahead of you post flop. If you decide to commit to the pot and you don't feel like someone has a set or top two, then calling may get more money when the table aggression keeps semi bluffing for you, shoving just pushes away the draws, backdoor draws with 1pr and top pair that can hit a better 2pr.

I agree that the 3 bet to $70 with KK was too small.

I also agree that when theres a bet and a raise and then someone flats the raise amount, its normally referred to as a "cold call" so the BB did cold call the $140.

Seriously....did I not explain this right? 3bet is totally fine sizing, also completely irrelevant to the hand in question...please don't de-rail, secondly passed the action? Flopped two pair with the intention to check raise on an aggressive table (standard) but got a re-raise and a cold call in front of me....how is this "passed up the action"?

also this board is super wet, 2 clubs and connected board of high cards?!

Uhhh bottom 2, gut shot flush draws, pair + flush draws, dry flush draws....people that call 70pre with 55 to set mine call flush draws after putting in 140.....it's not exactly out of the question...

Yum, Yum on the game dynamics....

I can't really complain about the limp in EP with A9ss... given that you are looking for multi-way stacking possibilities (although I'm almost always coming in for a raise or folding with this hand).

Great flop... then all sorts of **** explodes.... you didn't say much about villains other than they are decent - and laggy. Not a lot to go on. But lets break it down.

> The BB cold call smells like a FD... maybe a NFD (KQcc?).
> The original raiser hasn't really defined their hand... the cbet on a board that will hit the pf raiser hardest. Could be anything from air to top set. But given the small bet into that draw-y board.. I'm expecting to be ahead a high percentage of time.
> That leaves the SB raise... this one is really troublesome. You'd expect he would have re-raised AK, AA, or KK pf. You are blocking 99 (but still one combo). That leaves weird K9(ss?) hands or FDs... maybe something like QJcc.

It just seems to me like very few hands ahead of you. I would push - or call. The purpose of the call would be to let you fold if the OR pushes. And to get it all in OTR on a non-club, non-face card.

Wow jake, you literally explained my entire thought process in the hand, the cold call felt super combo drawy, and I was pretty certain I was way ahead of the original raiser. But got put in a crazy awkward squeezed spot OTF, thanks for your analysis it was actually good to hear someone think in a likeminded manner. AA and KK are pretty much out so it leaves AK and 99 that we are dead to rights on and I have blockers for both, especially 99. That's why I'm so firm this is a ship.

The problem I had with flatting is that if original raiser comes in behind were in a huge bloated pot 4 handed and half the deck screws me....why flat and then hate fold to all scare cards when we can ship and punish draws or spewy 1 pair/gut shots

Not a cold call. He had already checked.

^ Hero won't see the river with a stack.

^ Wow. Incredibly horrible poker; extraordinarily bad.

looks like you got the validation you wanted. let's move on to the next hand. lol

Don't want validation, was hoping for a concise answer based on either math, ranges, past experiences or anything else with serious validity. Im hoping that the next time I am put in a spot like this I would know how to play it. However Jake is the first person on this thread to give thoughtful analysis instead of cheeky remarks not saying that makes him correct or even that I am, just that I appreciate thoughtful constructive input.

that's incorrect. i gave a thoughtful analysis that was devoid of any cheeky remarks prior to jake posting.


the difference was that you didn't like my analysis b/c it didn't confirm your own thoughts on the hand. the reason you liked jake's analysis so much is b/c it was the same as yours. you even said as much in your response to him.

however, there were a couple of points i made that you either ignored or dealt with flippantly. for example, the KK hand 3bet being too small.. (perhaps it wasn't directly specific to this hand, but i wouldn't go as far as to call it a derail), and the fact that limping A9s in EP at an aggressive table isn't a wise play.

but, i suspect that's because you didn't post looking to debate your options, but rather to get confirmation of what you already knew was correct... hence...

I agree teamKB, limping A9s is a loose play preflop, although whether that's absolutely wrong or not is another covers action completely. Aside from that, I'm especially interested in the hand "as played".

You said that the board is not wet, please elaborate....

You said that raising is my worst option, please elaborate...

Not a cold call. He had already checked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
And to get it all in OTR on a non-club, non-face card.
^ Hero won't see the river with a stack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
I would push - or call. The purpose of the call would be to let you fold if the OR pushes.
^ Wow. Incredibly horrible poker; extraordinarily bad.

Yeah... I've noted in a few threads now that a group of readers don't like the call/fold option multi-way when they have uncertain reads and to much equity to fold immediately. In almost all these cases, I would definitely consider the push option too, as I noted above. But I wouldn't dismiss the call/fold option either.

I think it's worthy of consideration in circumstances that include:
> multi opponents in a drawy board... but the draws all cluster. In other words the draws aren't cumulative. In this case a non-club, non-face turn avoids most of the live draws.
> where the call option (or the non-push raise option) leaves you with half your starting stack.

Basically you are giving up some immediate FE in order not to blow off to a better hand immediately.

And in this hand, I may well go for the push option... but I'd certainly consider the call one too.

I'm not a fan of preflop based on the way you described the table. Against laggy fish its OK, but against laggy decent players, you're going to be playing OOP with a marginal hand. Save these hands for late position.

With this table dynamic and roughly 100BB stack I think I'm good shipping this one and riding the variance train.

the board is more wet than i originally indicated. the suit of the 9 in the OP didn't show up as a picture, so i didn't register it as two-tone. i agree with you that there's certainly flush draws and pair+draw and gutter+draw possibilities out there. its not a soaking wet board that offers both flush draws/flushes/OESDs/made straights.. but that doesn't mean its not wet.

with that in mind, assuming that a shove gets called by the pair+ and gutter+ combos.. that's what? 6 combos? QT/QJ/JT/KJ/KQ/KT of clubs?

you're also getting called by AK/99/AA/KK (i know you discounted AA/KK, so i will leave them out here totally).. which is 7 combos (6 of AK, 1 of 99)..

so, even if you throw a few more hands into the calling range that you are ahead of (like some naked flush draws and bottom 2 pair), so that you are ahead of more than 50% of the calling range.. is it still for value if when you're ahead, your opponent has 40-45% equity, but when you are behind, you have only 7-9% equity?

when that is the case, your shove needs to be ahead of SIGNIFICANTLY more than 50% of the calling ranges...

***Spoiler***

This thread got a little heated but just wanted to say thanks in advance for the input from all and although I don't post hands often I truly do appreciate the advice of this community.

I ended up stuffing it for +300, OR immediately folded, SB folded fairly fast later claiming he had K9 (which I believe) and BB tanked forever swore I had 99, flipped over AK and eventually called. I got killed to a 2 outer for stacks.

No one concisely said this was a easy fold while explaining why, and most said its a shove, so I suppose I shouldn't feel super bad about it. Good to know I wasn't way out of line.

you shouldn't feel bad at all. its a good learning experience on exploitative poker. read the thread above and let me know if you understand the process of figuring out whether the shove is good idea or not. does the method of counting combos make sense? does the idea of needing to be ahead of 50% of continuing range in order to shove for value make sense? does the idea of needing a buffer to that when equities are close when you're ahead, but you're crushed when behind make sense?

also, notice in the above analysis, we needed villains to be calling with some severely dominated **** like bottom 2 pair in order to even be remotely close to a shove being correct. the fact that one villain folded that hand and the other tanked hard with top 2 indicates that they aren't as call-happy as you thought.. that's fine.. just means you need to adjust your reads and assumptions going forward.

Thanks KB, that last post was actually really insightful, but to clairify, in a real world setting your probably folding in that spot??

idk.. hadn't gotten that far in my thought process of whether im folding or calling.. but i know im not raising!

let's see.. you have to call 140 and the pot is now 430... that means you need about 25% equity. its pretty close, given that action. the sb c/r the field is super strong and so is the cold call by the bb. add to that the fact that you're not closing the action and the OR is still to act.. and that he has an uncapped range.. AA/KK/AK/99 are all very much in his range still... i think i can find a fold here, even though its pretty sick..