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Old 05-20-2014, 02:04 AM   #1
Thorware
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3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Hi! Don't you hate getting AQo UTG? I feel like I got way too involved in this hand. Please let me know where I went wrong! It very well could have been preflop!

H: 30/M, TAG image, mostly staying quiet, even.
V: 40's/M, he's been sitting about one orbit, this is the first hand he has played.
Effective stacks: 700

H gets AQ UTG, limps. Three others limp. V in BB raises to 40, a very big raise for the table. H calls. Everyone else folds.

Flop (90): AT9

V leads 90. H calls.

A big pot-sized bet is unusual, but I have top pair, so I call and will wait to see what he does on the turn.

Turn (270): 5

V leads 135. H calls.

AT 2 pair? AK? Set? Random flush? Underpair bluffing at flush card? I don't like it, but I have 2NFD now, so I call.

River (540): 4

V leads 175. H calls.

I whiffed my flush, but I still have top pair and can bluff-catch underpairs. He bet so small compared to the pot, I must call. Damn, how did I get so much of my stack involved? Well, hopefully all my calling under-represents my hand and I'm good here!

Any mistakes? Or played like a pro?
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:10 AM   #2
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Here's where ya went wrong, right here!

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Originally Posted by Thorware View Post
a very big raise for the table. H calls.
Oh, and you don't hafta worry about that stupid ole TAG image anymore...
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:21 AM   #3
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Why did u limp AQ UTG? This is just TERRIBLE TERRIBLE TERRIBLE. Is it because you weren't comfortable raising with it? If you aren't comfortable raising with it then just FOLD. Folding > limping AQ UTG always. You will lose some value by not playing AQ UTG but it's likely not as big of a leak as you might think. Limping this hand UTG is a huge leak though.

Oh and fold to the giant raise. You think he's doing that with AJ or AT? If not then why are we calling? Doesn't his range destroy us?
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:34 AM   #4
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I take the initiative here and raise AQo UTG and consider folding to big a 3 bet.

If villain just flats pre, I'm calling/betting the flop if checked to.

As played your hand is under repped and you've given villain the initiative The only one advantage you have is position post flop.

Just open raise or fold to the large raise.




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Last edited by BIGFISH72; 05-20-2014 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:38 AM   #5
Thorware
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Buster: My thought process was "AQ is a good hand and I'm in position!" And I usually put people on middleish pairs when they raise so big for no clear reason. It seemed he wanted the limpers to fold. I aimed to disappoint!

Grind: I've heard from a couple places that AQo is a better limp/call hand than a raising hand OOP, since we want to play against dominated aces, is that advice bogus? I'm totally comfortable raising, I just thought limping is the correct play in this situation. PERHAPS I AM WRONG! I am calling to flop a high pair or steal in position when he misses his middleish-pair set, which is what I assign the majority of his range for such a large raise. BUT PERHAPS THAT IS WRONG! No, I don't put AJ/AT in his range, I feel it's mostly 8's-J's and AK. All of which are ahead of us, but we have position.
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:39 AM   #6
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

BIGFISH: Thanks, sounds like there's some consensus about how I can improve my preflop play!
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:42 AM   #7
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OP, what's your plan with AQo when a player in position raises once you have limped?

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:45 AM   #8
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorware View Post
Grind: I've heard from a couple places that AQo is a better limp/call hand than a raising hand OOP, since we want to play against dominated aces, is that advice bogus? I'm totally comfortable raising, I just thought limping is the correct play in this situation. PERHAPS I AM WRONG!
I have no clue where you heard that from. Maybe from an old nit. If we are going to play a big ace in an unopened pot we should be raising for value. Raising also gives us the aggression advantage and has the added benefit of helping us to define our villains holdings (example: if villain had called or 3-bet us pre we have a better idea where we stand).

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I am calling to flop a high pair or steal in position when he misses his middleish-pair set, which is what I assign the majority of his range for such a large raise. BUT PERHAPS THAT IS WRONG!
Yes this is wrong. Just play fundamentally sound poker. Assign villain a range and if you are behind that range just fold.
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:46 AM   #9
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I think you see villain show down pocket 9's 10's and AK here a lot the way he played it.

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Old 05-20-2014, 02:46 AM   #10
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

BIGFISH: I guess I'd still call a standard raise, hoping to play against a dominated A or Q, then play carefully with 1p- postflop OOP, or aggressively with 2p/straight. But it's already established I have no idea what I'm doing with this hand.
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:54 AM   #11
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

i don't think theres anything wrong with limping with AQ/AJ UTG
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:59 AM   #12
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Grind: The advice was in one of the books I've read. It was a hand example where the hero got over-committed with top pair. The book traced the problem back to his pre-flop raise from middle position, suggesting he should have limped instead for pot control. Maybe I misunderstood the exact situation it was describing, or maybe the book is outdated or wrong. I forget which book it was.

BIGFISH: Yes, I agree that 9's, T's, and AK show up a lot at showdown. But my reasoning for calling flop is to bluff-catch a C-bet, turn call is to retain my significant equity with top pair + flush draw, and river call is to bluff-catch getting excellent pot odds from his underbet. In all three situations, the fact that he is likely to have 9's, T's, or AK at showdown doesn't matter too much. At least that's the way I thought about it.
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:12 AM   #13
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorware View Post
Grind: The advice was in one of the books I've read. It was a hand example where the hero got over-committed with top pair. The book traced the problem back to his pre-flop raise from middle position, suggesting he should have limped instead for pot control. Maybe I misunderstood the exact situation it was describing, or maybe the book is outdated or wrong. I forget which book it was.
This may explain why so many old people limp their big aces lol.
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:21 AM   #14
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

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Originally Posted by Thorware View Post
Grind: The advice was in one of the books I've read. It was a hand example where the hero got over-committed with top pair. The book traced the problem back to his pre-flop raise from middle position, suggesting he should have limped instead for pot control. Maybe I misunderstood the exact situation it was describing, or maybe the book is outdated or wrong. I forget which book it was.

BIGFISH: Yes, I agree that 9's, T's, and AK show up a lot at showdown. But my reasoning for calling flop is to bluff-catch a C-bet, turn call is to retain my significant equity with top pair + flush draw, and river call is to bluff-catch getting excellent pot odds from his underbet. In all three situations, the fact that he is likely to have 9's, T's, or AK at showdown doesn't matter too much. At least that's the way I thought about it.
What is his range that he is making a large raise pf and cbet the flop (never mind 3 barreling)? Have you seen him cbet air before? Have you seen him 3 barrel air before? What part of his range do you have "significant equity" against?

If you raise this hand pf, it becomes much, much easier to play. If they raise at any point in the hand, you have a trivial fold. I think you have a pretty easy turn fold in this situation, but you clearly have no idea where you are or what villain could have and the pf action was the main reason for this.
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:10 AM   #15
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Throw book in fire. I fold AQ off UTG at any reasonably competent table. There are better spots.
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:21 AM   #16
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Limping AQ utg is a huge mistake IMO. That is weak right not TAG. The next big mistake is calling the large raise oop. By the river you are only beating what ever bluffs villain has in his range. AQ utg is a fold before it's a limp IMO. The only way you win the hand is win you hit, and sometimes you lose a big pot.
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:26 AM   #17
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flopturntree View Post
i don't think theres anything wrong with limping with AQ/AJ UTG
And why isn't it that bad? You don't have the lead and you don't have position. So what are the advantages?
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:57 PM   #18
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If you limp here with AQo you have to have a limp/reraise range, with AQo in there some of the time imo. Here AQ could be behind his range I think, let alone the fact that some will come along most times you flat the 40 which is a really bad spot..
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Old 05-20-2014, 02:32 PM   #19
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

the turn is interesting - I'd be fairly tempted to shove over his obv blocking bet
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Old 05-20-2014, 03:42 PM   #20
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorware View Post
Grind: The advice was in one of the books I've read. It was a hand example where the hero got over-committed with top pair. The book traced the problem back to his pre-flop raise from middle position, suggesting he should have limped instead for pot control. Maybe I misunderstood the exact situation it was describing, or maybe the book is outdated or wrong. I forget which book it was.
Throw that book out! The author was teaching the wrong lesson here: "...the hero got over-committed with top pair". That should have been the lesson, not that raising pre from MP with AQ is a bad idea. When stacks are deep, you have a one-pair hand, and your opponent isn't being co-operative in keeping the pot small, then you fold. Stack protection takes precedence over hand protection, and TPTK isn't a "till death do us part" proposition. Sure, you might get bluffed off the best, but every decent player can be bluffed; if it happens, it happens. Players who can't be bluffed are calling stations. How do they do?

Quote:
BIGFISH: Yes, I agree that 9's, T's, and AK show up a lot at showdown. But my reasoning for calling flop is to bluff-catch a C-bet, turn call is to retain my significant equity with top pair + flush draw, and river call is to bluff-catch getting excellent pot odds from his underbet. In all three situations, the fact that he is likely to have 9's, T's, or AK at showdown doesn't matter too much. At least that's the way I thought about it.
Good example of compounding errors. Once the unusually big raise for the table comes, it's time to get out. As played, once the turn improves your drawing chances, it's time to repop all in. Pray to the Poker Gods that he doesn't have hearts, and can find a fold with AK. You likely have some fold equity here, so use it. If it doesn't work out, oh well. Regardless, take a lesson and don't do that again.

Quote:
i don't think theres anything wrong with limping with AQ/AJ UTG
Maybe, but I don't like it. If the conditions are such that a raise up front with AQ or AJ drives off the kinds of hands you'd like to see call, and you get called or reraised from better hands, you're better off throwing them away. If you limp here, even if you don't get raised behind, you still have poor position with a hand that could be dominated. If you limp up front, get raised behind and fold, you're donating. If they'll call with worse, then definitely pop it and make their calls even bigger mistakes.

Just about the only case where you can possibly limp up front is if you can get your opponents afraid that you just might repop once it gets back to you. However, there are also problems with limping up front for a reraise. It's not something you should be doing very often.
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:05 PM   #21
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

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Originally Posted by Kyuubimon View Post
If the conditions are such that a raise up front with AQ or AJ drives off the kinds of hands you'd like to see call, and you get called or reraised from better hands, you're better off throwing them away. If you limp here, even if you don't get raised behind, you still have poor position with a hand that could be dominated.
I run into these conditions quite a bit at the local, super-nitty, 1/3 tables. I bet AQ, but it is marginal because I am playing at the very bottom of a perceived range that is heavily tilted towards big aces. If an ace hits the flop, and my bet gets called, I generally will not be against a made hand I can beat. (This is villain dependent of course.)

You can profitably c-bet a K-high flop. A Q-high flop can get you paid. You can sometimes bluff smaller flops, but you need to figure out which villains will get sticky with their underpairs. Putting in a third barrel on the turn has to be part of the repertoire.

Some of the regs here will limp AQ UTG and UTG+1 and then call or fold to raise depending on raiser's image & position. They get paid sometimes (+EV for the hand perhaps), but it screws up the metagame. Anyone observant will avoid paying off a nit showing down AQ after limping pre. I can remember who limped AQ 10 sessions ago. I agree; bet AQ or throw it away.

Last edited by $FishWreck$; 05-20-2014 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 05-20-2014, 05:29 PM   #22
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Fold the flop as played. BB could be squeezing with AJ, but this is the only hand you beat. Flop is a terrible candidate for a bluff. He probably isn't lying. Bluff shove turn. Flop betsizing strongly suggests V is scared of both the flush and the straight, not drawing to them. I think you get called close to never.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:04 PM   #23
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

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Originally Posted by BIGFISH72 View Post
I think you see villain show down pocket 9's 10's and AK here a lot the way he played it.

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This sounds like a perfect fit for somebody trying to get max value/blocker betting. The line fits, good call.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:07 PM   #24
Thorware
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

Some very interesting and useful feedback! Thanks everyone!

I found one of the book examples I was remembering. It's in Professional No-Limit Hold'Em by Flynn/Mehta/Miller. Page 229. It's saying that in a 125BB game, with AQo in MP, raising and getting callers will yield a middlish SPR which is terrible for a top-pair type hand. It recommends limp/fold or limp/reraise, raiser-dependent.
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:39 PM   #25
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Re: 3/5 AQo UTG, yuck.

not a fan of limping pre
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