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Old 02-06-2018, 10:59 AM   #1
MikeStarr
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2 similar river spots

These 2 hands are similar but different. Both hands the flush hits the turn and I check behind. Both hands villain also checks the river to me. I believe both villains are capable of check raising the river as a bluff which is one of the rarest things I see at this level. Would you bet either of these rivers?

1) V1 ($1000) opens to $20 UTG. V2 ($900) calls in MP. Hero ($1700) 3bets to $80 QcQs OTB. Only V1 calls.

Ive seen V1 open 64s in EP earlier and since that time Ive 3 bet him twice including a limp reraise from UTG with A3s. He folded preflop both times but he calls this time.

Flop ($180) Th5c8h. He check/calls $100
Turn ($380) 2h. X/X
River ($380) Tc. He checks. So the flush hit the turn and the top board card paired on the river, although that's less bothersome in a 3 bet pot.

I believe villain is capable of a check raise bluff but its just a guess based on him being creative. Bet or check back?

2) V2 ($1000ish) from previous hand limps in EP. Hero ($1800) raises to $25 in LP with AhKh. V2 calls HU.

Flop ($55) Ac9c4h. He check/calls $30.
Turn ($115) 5c X/X
River ($115) Td. He checks. Bet or check this river? Again, I have a feeling this guy is capable of a check raise bluff. Ive never seen him do it. Its just a gut feeling based on his demeanor.
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:10 AM   #2
randomcards
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Re: 2 similar river spots

With the action as you described I'm value betting both rivers.

If you are worries about getting trapped by a big hand villains just so rarely will check both turn and river when super strong they are too worried about not getting paid. So you can bet/fold river based on sizing/read.

If you are worried about getting bluffed instead, first in general I don't think that's a great reason not to bet ever. Second esp in Hand 1 if villain wants to bluff a huge chunk of the team he is going to do it by leading river instead of c/raising after the turn goes x/x

Without a lot of history with a villain I think you leave a lot on the table by not betting in these spots, certainely much more than you lose if you get check raise bluffed every once in a while.
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:21 AM   #3
NewClintEastwood
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Re: 2 similar river spots

The second hand I definitely bet the river, but would have just bet the turn if I was in your shoes. You have position, initiative, and I know you play draws aggressively. You'll want to bet your flushes on the turn and you'll also want to bet this turn almost every time you cbet miss the flop. He will also have a random club sometimes. With that in mind a bet seems really good.

First hand im indifferent on. If V calls really light I think bet, if not I'd just check. JJ, 99, or maybe an 8 seem like the only reasonable calls. Everything else you beat I expect him to fold or turn into a bluff.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:29 PM   #4
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Interesting. I'm checking both rivers, especially in hand 1, because I don't see what we are getting value from? Better is not folding, worse is so likely not calling. (In hand 1, what calls? JJ? 99? 77? A high?) I might bet hand 2 if V is not capable of bluff raising. If he is, you have to be willing to call.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:45 PM   #5
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Originally Posted by NewClintEastwood View Post
The second hand I definitely bet the river, but would have just bet the turn if I was in your shoes. You have position, initiative, and I know you play draws aggressively. You'll want to bet your flushes on the turn and you'll also want to bet this turn almost every time you cbet miss the flop. He will also have a random club sometimes. With that in mind a bet seems really good.

First hand im indifferent on. If V calls really light I think bet, if not I'd just check. JJ, 99, or maybe an 8 seem like the only reasonable calls. Everything else you beat I expect him to fold or turn into a bluff.
This is where I am too although I am much less likely to bet the first hand when the river pairs the top card. Now V has more than one way to bluff us out with a raise which makes it less tempting to try and get thin value.
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:12 PM   #6
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
These 2 hands are similar but different. Both hands the flush hits the turn and I check behind. Both hands villain also checks the river to me. I believe both villains are capable of check raising the river as a bluff which is one of the rarest things I see at this level. Would you bet either of these rivers?

1) V1 ($1000) opens to $20 UTG. V2 ($900) calls in MP. Hero ($1700) 3bets to $80 QcQs OTB. Only V1 calls.

Ive seen V1 open 64s in EP earlier and since that time Ive 3 bet him twice including a limp reraise from UTG with A3s. He folded preflop both times but he calls this time.

Flop ($180) Th5c8h. He check/calls $100
Turn ($380) 2h. X/X
River ($380) Tc. He checks. So the flush hit the turn and the top board card paired on the river, although that's less bothersome in a 3 bet pot.

I believe villain is capable of a check raise bluff but its just a guess based on him being creative. Bet or check back?

2) V2 ($1000ish) from previous hand limps in EP. Hero ($1800) raises to $25 in LP with AhKh. V2 calls HU.

Flop ($55) Ac9c4h. He check/calls $30.
Turn ($115) 5c X/X
River ($115) Td. He checks. Bet or check this river? Again, I have a feeling this guy is capable of a check raise bluff. Ive never seen him do it. Its just a gut feeling based on his demeanor.
hand 1 as played
hand 2 I would have bet the turn 60-70 you have tptk why chance a 4th club
and as played would have bet river
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:40 PM   #7
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Re: 2 similar river spots

I’d value bet both rivers. Feel good in each spot. Hard to believe better in either hand checks turn and river.
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:49 PM   #8
Javanewt
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
Iíd value bet both rivers. Feel good in each spot. Hard to believe better in either hand checks turn and river.
But what calls? Maybe in hand 2 we get AQ or AJ to call?
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:51 PM   #9
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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But what calls? Maybe in hand 2 we get AQ or AJ to call?
Hand 1, A8, any PP, AK.
Hand 2 I like less, but any A.
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Old 02-06-2018, 02:56 PM   #10
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
But what calls? Maybe in hand 2 we get AQ or AJ to call?
I would ask when V checks turn and river, what hands are we behind?

I find that Vís call with complete trash quite often. Let V decide if he wants to call, donít make the decision for him by checking back.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:07 PM   #11
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
I would ask when V checks turn and river, what hands are we behind?

I find that Vís call with complete trash quite often. Let V decide if he wants to call, donít make the decision for him by checking back.
reread op's post
he feared a check raise in both spots
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:31 PM   #12
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Re: 2 similar river spots

River 1: Probably check since, as others have mentioned, there are not a lot of worse hands he calls with. Buuuuuutt, if we think he often will c/r as a bluff to a weak bet, it would be pretty sick to outlevel him by betting 1/3 pot with plan to call a raise with our one pair hand. High variance line. We feel awesome when he shows up with J9 or 67.

River 2: I think this demands a thinnish value bet. When he checks the river, after the turn went check/check he takes a big risk you will check behind if he has a flush and a lot of players won't do that.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:38 PM   #13
Javanewt
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
Hand 1, A8, any PP, AK.
Hand 2 I like less, but any A.
Hand 1 V raises from UTG, calls our 3bet for the first time with A8? The only PPs we beat that might call are JJ and 99. I assume you are calling a raise on river?

Hand 2 I can see AQ or AJ calling, but again, you are calling a raise, correct?
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:51 PM   #14
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Bet turn both hands. As played, I check hand 1, bet hand 2.

It seems you don't value bet nearly thin enough.
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Old 02-06-2018, 05:37 PM   #15
MikeStarr
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Re: 2 similar river spots

The consensus seems to be check river in HH1 and bet HH2...which is what I did.

HH1...I check back and villain had 7d5d
HH2...I bet $40 and got check raised to $125
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Old 02-06-2018, 05:40 PM   #16
Avaritia
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Man, your games are getting better
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Old 02-06-2018, 05:50 PM   #17
MikeStarr
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Re: 2 similar river spots

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Man, your games are getting better
You have no idea. They raised to max buy in to $1000 and now we are getting all kinds of new players that all think they are superstars.
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Old 02-06-2018, 05:53 PM   #18
Javanewt
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Re: 2 similar river spots

5d7d, wow. I've seen some big pots won with that hand, but his play is pretty bad. You weren't getting any more from him, and if he had raised the river, it would have been pretty sick.

Hand 2 I think you have to call, especially with your bet sizing, which I assume was on purpose?
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Old 02-06-2018, 05:55 PM   #19
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Hand 1: Tbh this seems like a really close bet to induce/call spot. I would expect V to c/r a lot of flush draws on the flop since he has sets in his range and you don't except for maybe TT. He'll have some Tx but not that many. He's also more likely to lead flushes and Tx not expecting you to value bet river on this runout. However, he'll have a ton of 66/77/99 that will be tempted to c/jam and rep something if you bet. So yeah, think I like bet $200/call here even without a heart.

Hand 2: Seems like a spot where V is a lot more likely to c/r or fold than call so I would just check. I think a good strategy in this spot would be to value bet AJ-AK but with J/Q/K and plan to call a raise with it. AJ w/ J seems like a better value bet than AK without K. This can be mixed in with a few bluffs such as QJs and KJs until you get a better feel for how he plays his range in similar spots.
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Old 02-06-2018, 06:08 PM   #20
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Re: 2 similar river spots

1) Bet the turn for value, you can check back the river since you have position and you'll get two big streets of value in a 3bet pot with a one pair hand. By checking the turn then betting the river after checked to, you're basically giving him the green light to bluff since your hand is under repped. If he had the flush to begin with he would probably lead the river. However he opened UTG then flatted a 3bet so flush draws are only a small fraction of his range.

2) Same as above. Are you checking because the flush card came? If you are, you're just being mubsy. In these spots with position it's better to bet the turn and plan to check back the river, since he likes to bluff raise rivers.
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Old 02-06-2018, 07:02 PM   #21
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Re: 2 similar river spots

H1 100 pre. Flop too big. Ck turn ck riv ok. Against someone bad you can probable aim for streets with a lukewarm hand like this, but ck back this riv always.

H2 pre good. Flop ok but could be smaller on Axx. Generally would go for 2 streets.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:01 PM   #22
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Also, they’re not similar spots just bc the boards are turn-flushed. These are very different range interactions on very different boards. I am not adjusting my riv betting frequencies one way or another bc some player has more ckr bluffs. It’s something to be aware of, but it wouldn’t necessarily mean that I would bet less often with middling. More important is understanding or at least having a feel for comparing the EV of ck-showing down vs betting (and subsequent folds/calls/raises).
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Old 02-07-2018, 12:11 AM   #23
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Bet turn

Bet turn
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:40 AM   #24
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Re: 2 similar river spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomcards View Post
With the action as you described I'm value betting both rivers.

If you are worries about getting trapped by a big hand villains just so rarely will check both turn and river when super strong they are too worried about not getting paid. So you can bet/fold river based on sizing/read.

If you are worried about getting bluffed instead, first in general I don't think that's a great reason not to bet ever. Second esp in Hand 1 if villain wants to bluff a huge chunk of the team he is going to do it by leading river instead of c/raising after the turn goes x/x

Without a lot of history with a villain I think you leave a lot on the table by not betting in these spots, certainely much more than you lose if you get check raise bluffed every once in a while.
+1

If these types of players are prevalent in your pool, congrats!
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