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(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet (2) AK hands facing a 3 bet

10-10-2016 , 10:03 AM
#1) $2/$5

Button straddles. 2 limps. I make it $40 in the cutoff with AK. The button 3 bets to $100 with $410 total stack. It folds back to me and I cover him. The button is a strange player. He has no problem shoving chips into the pot. I dont think hes good but he has a clue what hes doing and is very aggro. He could easily think my cutoff raise means nothing. His 3 bet to only $100 looks to be begging for a call and really makes me think he has AA/KK.

What do you do here?

#2) $5/$10

I open to $40 in the cutoff with AK. Standard open in this 5/10 game is $35 but Im sticking with my standard open of 4BBs. The button 3 bets to $125 and it folds back to me. Obviously he could easily think Im stealing and he could be 3 betting lite.

The game has only been open for 20-30 minutes. I bought for $600 so you can assume these guys think Im a donkey since they have $1-2000 each. My stack is at $725 now and he covers. I know 3-4 guys from the $2/$5 game but have never seen the button before so he doesnt know me either.

What do you do? This one feels like an easy 4 bet all in to me.

Last edited by MikeStarr; 10-10-2016 at 10:10 AM.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:15 AM
Shove both IMO.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:17 AM
1) size too small. You should go 60 when there are limpers.

Easy shove pre with 40BB CO VS BUTTON war unless you know V is only 3 betting AA/KK

2) easy shove pre when you think V is capable of 3 betting lite. It is standard CO VS BTN war.

It seems that you are a bit of money scared when you play 5/T based on the fact that you buy in short and not comfortable to stack off pre when you do not have AA/KK even short stacked. You should probably move back to 2/5 game
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:27 AM
I personally would..

1) I would say in this spot a jam would be fine, and with FE from your read this is likely profitable. Calling allows villain to play pretty perfectly against our range of 10-JJ and AK, and you likely face very tough decisions on later streets if villain 'is happy putting chips in to pot'. Folding to a small ish button straddle/3-bet with AK seams too tight, in my opinion. If your read is correct then a shove is likely best, if you think there's at least a small chance he is the type of player to 'protect his straddle' or thinks your raise 'means nothing' as you say. I would jam given button is 100BB deep, I would reconsider this option if he were deeper. He 3-bet was also quite small, but can't gather much from this given info you stated.

2) This may not be a popular opinion, but I like calling in this spot. Given your stack image, the deeper players likely think you will jam with your top range (why wouldn't you), and will fold out anything but that. This means that, even with our low SPR after calling, you could retain some fold equity for a C/R jam and also have the perfect stack to value raise if you hit. I think villain is likely to C-bet bluff given your stack size and perceived imagine, so calling could be an effective way to stack off/ add 50% to your stack.

AK facing tough spots is never fun
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle
1) size too small. You should go 60 when there are limpers.

Easy shove pre with 40BB CO VS BUTTON war unless you know V is only 3 betting AA/KK

2) easy shove pre when you think V is capable of 3 betting lite. It is standard CO VS BTN war.

It seems that you are a bit of money scared when you play 5/T based on the fact that you buy in short and not comfortable to stack off pre when you do not have AA/KK even short stacked. You should probably move back to 2/5 game
I buy in for $300 in the 2/5 game. People here hate it but it works for me. It has nothing to do with playing scared money. I didnt say I'm not comfortable stacking off with AK. I just want peoples opinions on these spots.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I buy in for $300 in the 2/5 game. People here hate it but it works for me. It has nothing to do with playing scared money. I didnt say I'm not comfortable stacking off with AK. I just want peoples opinions on these spots.
Do you cash out when you get deeper? Say over 300BB.

Yeah, if you are good at short stacking, my assumption is wrong.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:37 AM
I am not familiar with the dynamics of 5/T or necessarily hit 2/5 but I would think this is a great spot to shove with AK in both instances. Grain of salt though.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle
Do you cash out when you get deeper? Say over 300BB.

Yeah, if you are good at short stacking, my assumption is wrong.
It depends on the situation. What position I am in compared to other big stacks. How aggro the big stacks are that have position on me. How soft the overall game is...ect. I dont leave just because I get deep. I'm not a short stacker. I just buy in for 60BBs and play from there.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:47 AM
Hand 1 - Why raise so big pre? We have position, we usually have the best hand. I really don't know what the best option is here. I don't like folding, calling, or shipping. No help from me.

Hand 2 - I don't like 40 at 5/T but I know some crushers that do, I usually like keeping pots smaller pre. Whatever works for your style of play, your ranges, and table type though. Standard is 35, I open to 30 for the same reasons I typically use 15 at 2/5. I'd be using live inferences based on what he looks like to decide here. My choices are either going to be 4b to 225 and call the 5b, if he doesn't 5b then ship every flop. Or ship it in pre.

The first few times I played 5/T I bought in for 750. I found that it's a good stack size to control the action.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 10:49 AM
I shove both hands given stack sizes. In Hand 1, you've already said V is agro, and I wouldn't read too much into the sizing, which is a big bet pre for a 2/5 game even if it's only 2.5x your initial raise. Basically never folding AK to a non-nit for 80BBs in a straddled pot.

Hand 2, some reads on button would be helpful, but I assume at 5/10 we can safely say that the default player is 3-betting wider than KK+/AK on their button, and therefore can gii with some FE against the lower part of his range, a lot of hands that are flipping with us, and maybe a loose call by AQ.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunChips
Hand 1 - Why raise so big pre? We have position, we usually have the best hand. I really don't know what the best option is here. I don't like folding, calling, or shipping. No help from me.

Hand 2 - I don't like 40 at 5/T but I know some crushers that do, I usually like keeping pots smaller pre. Whatever works for your style of play, your ranges, and table type though. Standard is 35, I open to 30 for the same reasons I typically use 15 at 2/5. I'd be using live inferences based on what he looks like to decide here. My choices are either going to be 4b to 225 and call the 5b, if he doesn't 5b then ship every flop. Or ship it in pre.

The first few times I played 5/T I bought in for 750. I found that it's a good stack size to control the action.
$40 is big after a straddle and 2 $10 limps?
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 11:51 AM
My bad... didn't see the straddle... in that case, it's too small imo. Straddle will usually at least call and limpers will call. We are gonna be handcuffed to no cbet on all but the best of non A/K flops.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 12:35 PM
1) pf raise is too small. as played, if he's aggro and 3bets frequently, jam.

2) so you've never seen the button before, but you think he could be light? Of course, anyone "could be" light. But if you've never seen him 3bet light before, assuming he is and playing accordingly is going to burn money fast.
One of the biggest misconceptions regarding 2/5 players moving up (or trying to move up) to 5/10 is everyone's a pro and they're 3betting light left and right but that's so far from the truth.
Since calling OOP sucks, and a 4bet commits us, combined with the fact you only have 70 big blinds, just jam.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
1) pf raise is too small. as played, if he's aggro and 3bets frequently, jam.

2) so you've never seen the button before, but you think he could be light? Of course, anyone "could be" light. But if you've never seen him 3bet light before, assuming he is and playing accordingly is going to burn money fast.
One of the biggest misconceptions regarding 2/5 players moving up (or trying to move up) to 5/10 is everyone's a pro and they're 3betting light left and right but that's so far from the truth.
Since calling OOP sucks, and a 4bet commits us, combined with the fact you only have 70 big blinds, just jam.

When we don't have much reads on specific V due to very limited information, we can use some population reads. I think you would agree that 5/T players on average 3 bet lighter than 1/2, 2/5 players on average.

Assuming V on button is capable of 3 betting light against CO open is not that bad here at all.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 05:34 PM
I only said the button in HH#2 could be lite because he was mixing it up pretty good in the short time the table had been open and seemed a tad maniacal. Very small sample of hands though. He couldve just gotten several good hands right out of the box.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 05:36 PM
Nobody is worried about the rather small 3 bet in HH#1? In the past couple days Ive seen two 3 bets that were close to min reraises and both guys had AA.

One was a $35 raise that was reraised to $75
The other was my $20 raise that was reraised to $40. This guy was a massive rock so I was confidant he had AA.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 05:38 PM
I would happily ship both hands. You have fold equity and still have decent equity when called.

BU in the first hand probably wouldn't think like this, but I like this raise sizing with my whole 3! range because of stack size. With your weaker hands you want to be able to raise/fold, and with your monsters you want your opponent to think he has some fold equity with a jam.

Small 3! are often pretty nutted. I think against an unknown you can fold hand one, but not against a villain with this description.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 06:16 PM
(Grunch)

With the limited info given:

Hand 1: Shove. He's a player who "has no problem shoving chips into the pot"

Hand 2: Against an unknown, easy fold. OP (with all due respect) after only 20-30 minutes of play when you have a mind set of "you can assume these guys think Im a donkey since they have $1-2000 each." your mind set is flawed and your decision basis is therefore also flawed.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crsseyed
(Grunch)

With the limited info given:

Hand 1: Shove. He's a player who "has no problem shoving chips into the pot"

Hand 2: Against an unknown, easy fold. OP (with all due respect) after only 20-30 minutes of play when you have a mind set of "you can assume these guys think Im a donkey since they have $1-2000 each." your mind set is flawed and your decision basis is therefore also flawed.
I meant that they probably assume I'm a donkey because I bought in short, not because they bought in for 1-200BBs. You cant tell me that you dont assume most people who buy in short are bad players. Most people who buy in short ARE bad players.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr
I meant that they probably assume I'm a donkey because I bought in short, not because they bought in for 1-200BBs. You cant tell me that you dont assume most people who buy in short are bad players. Most people who buy in short ARE bad players.
My read on players buying in short is they are bad players when they buy in short for ~minimum buyin.

When they buy in short for ~medium buy in I don't assume they're bad players.

In your case here, If I was sitting at this game and I had bought in for 1-200BBs and you came and bought in for 600 and then built it up to 725 I would not assume you were a bad player. I would assume you were a capable player.
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 07:55 PM
Because no bad player has ever run up a short stack in 30 min...
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22
Because no bad player has ever run up a short stack in 30 min...
The point to be made here is:

Don't make a decision for your 72.5BB stack all in preflop against an unknown who's been dealt ~10-15 hands (20-30 minutes) based on "he thinks I'm a donkey"
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 08:25 PM
standard shove in both hhs..
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote
10-10-2016 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crsseyed
The point to be made here is:

Don't sit with a 72.5BB stack drop back down to 2/5
fyp a lil
(2) AK hands facing a 3 bet Quote

      
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