Game is a four handed must-move game.

Hero CO (Covers) is a mid twenties white guy. Likely known to everyone else at the table as a aggressive winning player.

V1 SB (~$600) is a fishy older woman. Definitely the mark at the table. Has calling station tendencies. Will stack off with top pair, over pay for draws, etc.

V2 BB (~$970) is a solid TAG player in his mid twenties as well. We know each other and respect each others game. For the most part we stay out each others way.


Hero is dealt: KK

Pre-flop:
BTN straddles to $10, V1 in SB calls, V2 in BB calls, Hero is CO raises to $40, BTN folds, both V1 and V2 call.

Flop (~$120): QT4
V1 leads for $75, V2 raises to $175... Hero?

Okay, so when V1 leads, I think she has a hand that she likes. Most likely Qx or a flush draw. V2 then raises with me still left to act, but given the pre-flop action, Villain can't show up with QQ and TT, and he is very unlikely to show up with any two pair combos (he's not limp calling T4 or Q4). I would expect him to raise QT pre in this spot, although I guess it's possible that he holds that hand. Thoughts?

Your description of V's and their tendencies have me wanting to sigh fold.

I wouldn't expect a solid TAG to have a limping range here so I'm confused. 44 has to be a big part of it unfortunately. Suited crap sounds possible too. Maybe hes playing a draw fast and he doesnt realize his FE sucks against a callbox who just donked the flop. His raise reaks of value. I think you might be behind his value range here, and I dont want to stack off deep. I puke fold.

Can KK play for stacks in this spot-and-onward? Can both Vs show up with worse?

IMO, more turn cards improve V1 and V2 than can improve hero's KK.

IMO, you can't flat and let V2 see the turn with his bet-folding range.

In this spot considering stack sizes and action in front I'm probably going to find a cry-fold here.

Otherwise blast another raise in there...

(Guessing V1 shows up with some Q-combo and V2 shows up with a set or SD/FD+pair)

BB is 2nd to act preflop right? If so I don't expect him to have many QT in his pre range.

Depends on V1's donking range but assuming it's not 2p+ strong I would probably flat and evaluate. V2 should be raising KQ maybe even QJ for value, again depending on V1's donking range. His sizing is also kinda small which makes me think he's not super strong since he would want to shovel money in against a station.

I'd be fairly stuck here too. V2 can show up with sets, 2 pair, AQ,KQ, draws trying to isolate the fish. I'm getting in on this thread. Interesting spot.

Anyone else really dislike the raise size pre flop in a straddle pot with two limpers?

I would have preferred $50-$55 here.

pre is a little too small.
as played, i think this really goes down on a live read. the situation is uncommon, but not only for you, but also for V2. he should and will have expected v1 to check, and now he is stuck sandwiched between v1 and hero. his raising range will be diff from what it would be once it goes c/c/bet, because that was the situation he expected.
he should easily be wider in this spot than normally.

pretty strange situation. thinking about it, i don´t think v1 will donk really strong here, or only really strong hands, so not too worried about her range yet. i think we actually might be able here to raise/fold to 350, as strange as this sounds. if v2 shoves over our flop 3bet, he almost always has a set or QT then. usually not a fan of a play like that, but imo it can be applied here.

I'm pretty sure that I never find the fold button here given descriptions.

If V2 is a tag, he should have QQ/TT here never. 44 here only some of the time, and QT only some of the time. He should also be capable of raising here with KJ with 1-2 diamonds, AQ, KQ, TXdd, AJdd, AKdd (which he might not have in his range given the limp/call pf) 98dd, JTdd. So, we can't really be doing all that badly here.

Gotta feel like calling and shipping all non diamond, non ace turn cards is a decent way to go about it.

Agreed and meant to say that.

I'd somewhat agree ... But are you looking to get into a leveling war with v2 if it comes to that?

KK may hold up but someone is drawing to a stone-nutted hand by the river.

I'd agree here too

He's not gonna turn Qx into a bluff if that's what you mean. He'll most likely either bet smallish or check OTT since he has SDV and hero could be drawing.

Yeah pre is a bit small, I'd go $50 at least.

.

V2's range is too wide (has draws in it that you are ahead of). You can call his raise and see what develops (gives V1 a chance to rr too, and if V2 folds you just get it in)

I like flatting.

When we flat what do you think our range looks like and how do you think V reacts to it on the different run outs ? We probably can't rep sets (QQ, TT) as we'd likely gii OTF. I kind of feel like we are opening ourselves up to getting leveled here and we make a bunch of mistakes going forward when we flat. I'm not that good to flat the flop. I think this is a spot where when big money goes in post at a LLSNL game and we don't have the nuts, or near it we should be thinking about folding more often.

Kind of crappy but I doubt V1 leads a set and V2 can't really have a set except 44. Since V2 could be isoing V1 I have a hard time finding the fold button and just make it 600 on the flop. Folding a big overpair in a 4 handed game doesn't seem like a good idea even though we are semi deep with V2. AQ/KQ are a big part of his range. His raise size doesn't scream strength on a pretty wet board and you are blocking his outs for a J9dd type hand. If he flopped two pair you still aren't in that bad of shape.

Does this not factor into anyone's decision? Given the circumstances I think V2's range is pretty effing nutted. Bottom is like super combo draw probably.

Spots like this I've seen 'accidental' bluffs come off based on Vs thinking ....

I wouldn't expect a stone-naked-4th-level-thinking-supersick-bluff but he can still create a gross spot considering stack sizes and how the turn can come off...

We are probably head but considering the action in-front I'm fine folding my $40/8BB and hope I get that value of entertainment and see the river...

Still don't like flatting ... Personally I'm finding a fold or blasting in a raise ...

^^^ Pure Gold ^^^

Considering a V's donk lead, TAG raise behind, and two streets to come it feels like we'd be flipping for stacks ...

$40 invested and KK looks oh so sweet ... but I'd find a better spot for stacks ...

Raise more pre


I'm right there with you...

raise more pre

definitely dont fold now. i think call is probably better than raise, both are fine though imo. we have decent visibility playing a turn, although theres probably a lot of pair+fd and different combo draws that can improve on a number of different cards. V2s value range is too narrow to fold an overpair now, and he is likely to raise 1p against fish's donk

happy fold lol, he cant have aq kq raises pre. we invested 40--odds are our hand will not improve.
I fold here am happy that i lost the min.
Best case he has j9 or 98 diamond and he has 40% vs us.

raise more pre too

Grunch

I'm raising more pre

As played I'm not folding. there is too many value raises from V2 against V1's donk lead. Now I feel obligated to raise and probably play for stacks against some kinda combo draw likely. I think the only hand we are dominated by is rarely 44. QQ and TT almost never and QT while it is possible I think I weight the heavy draw hands a lot heavier.

I really think a larger pre to 55 was in order.

Wow, fast response time on this one.

Yeah... knew I was going to get comments on this... Players were playing pretty tight pre for a 4 handed game with most raised pots getting folded around. I had toned down my raise size intentionally for that reason.

Basically my thought process went...

"Hmm, I should fold... But I don't really have to worry about V1 that much in this spot since I would be trying to play for stacks here anyway... and what can V2 have that currently beats me? Only 44 and QT a small % of the time. The rest of his range is draws. Okay, I'm going to call. No wait! If he's likely got a draw and I'm deciding to continue here, I should raise!"

Hero raises to $450, V1 moves all-in for ~$500 total or whatever, V2 tanks moves all-in, Hero calls.

In retrospect... I feel like I probably should have folded flop since there are aren't actually any hands in V2's range that I'm in great shape against. In addition, I think he would be less likely to play a draw fast in this spot given that I'm behind him, and he doesn't have much FE against V1's donking range. I think I basically got caught up in the fact that V2 can only hold a few combo's of cards that are actually ahead of me. Plus the overlay with V1 in the pot too, I figured that it couldn't be horrible to raise/GII.

Anyway, thanks for the input guys.

Results:

So he either has Q-10 or a big draw. He is probably trying to iso the fish in position with her likely top pair.

I personally like a 3 bet to 300 here ready to against V1 and evaluate against V2.

I feel v2 is going to be making this play, trying to ISO, with AQ KQ a lot. He may also do this with KJ or fd (although I weigh less into the semi bluff given V1 is a station type player).

I feel we're only behind 44 and an occasional Q10s.