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Old 03-02-2017, 04:02 AM   #1
mojojo16
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2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Hi guys,

I'm really looking for feedback on my river play, but I'll honestly take feedback at all points in this hand.

Hero: likely viewed as a TAG winning regular but capable of making well timed bluffs - $700 stack

V1: Pure spazz player, losing buy-in after buy-in and shows no sign of knowing how to play - $400 stack

V2: Strong pro - considered by most to be the strongest regular in the casino - $1100 stack

Hand:
V2: Raises $20 from the cutoff
Hero: Calls from BTN w/ 99
V1: Raises to $65 from the BB (does this with absolutely any two cards)
V2: Calls $65
Hero: Calls $65

I thought about 3 betting preflop but I normally try to avoid large pots with V2 when possible and I could certainly see V1 4 betting me and then V2 isolating with a jam. I didn't want to play a ~$1800 aipf hand w/ 99 against two players and have no clue where I was at.

Flop ($195): Td, 7h, 6s
V1: Bets out $75
V2: Calls $75
Hero: Calls $75

At this point in the hand, V1 betting here is not necessarily a sign of strength. He had been reraising people preflop all night, firing a C-bet and then completely giving up and check folding on the turn.

Turn ($420): 9h
V1: Checks
V2: Bets $200
Hero: Calls $200
V1: Folds

River ($820):Qs
V2: Checks
Hero: ????

I have a stack of $360 and am closing the action on the river. Is this a shove? Do I check behind?

I ended up shoving and it created some discussion between myself and V2 after the hand if it was a really good shove, or just too thin of a value bet.

I'd appreciate any help - I'll wait 24 hours and come back with the result.

Last edited by mojojo16; 03-02-2017 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:05 AM   #2
Minatorr
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Its an insta jam. Flop is a fold
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:13 AM   #3
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Its an insta jam. Flop is a fold
I considered folding the flop, but both V2 and myself knew that V1 was a pure spaz. When V2 made the call, he knows that with any pair that he is likely ahead of V1, so with a pair + gutshot I thought there was still a chance I had enough equity in the pot.

Can I get some others opinions on my flop play? I could have made a mistake here too.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:38 AM   #4
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I think flop is a good flat in position. We have a gutter and holding two of the nines means if we hit an 8 we will have the best hand. We could be a favorite right now and not even need an 8 so I see a turn card because of these reasons + villain reads.

After villain leads for a half pot bet on turn and then checks river despite the only draws completing are straight draws and hero having the less than half pot stack I think it's safe to say we have the best hand. Weird line by villain to try and extract value if he has a straight. River is a jam for value and I don't think it's too thin at all. Villain's bet sizing and check on the river cap his range. Hero only loses to 8x and KJ. Sure, TT and QQ, but he never shows up with those holdings. KJ never checks the rivered nuts either. Checking J8 makes no sense either, I'm sure villain would value own hero's 8x. The only possible hand that hero is losing to is a very oddly played 8x hand.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:51 AM   #5
Redskins 47
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Maybe I'm a nit but I check back when there's a one card straight on the board.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:52 AM   #6
browni3141
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I like a back-raise pre-flop.

As played the flop call is fine considering such a small sizing. V2 doesn't need to have much of a hand to call here.

Shove the turn. Villain has a lot of hands which have more perceived equity but are actually a pretty big dog to your hand, so there is value here. By calling it's not like you're likely to get away anyway if villain does have it. Considering stack depth there is little value in allowing villain to bluff the river because most of his bluffs have some equity and we'd like to charge him.

Shove the river. You don't have a lot of natural bluffs on the river, so it may be tough to get calls from worse, but this also means Villain is unlikely to trap with a straight, so you have the best hand usually.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:24 AM   #7
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I fold flop
Call turn
Shove river
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:36 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I'd 3bet pre and call SB 4-bet based on your read of him having ATC. Side note: his 3b/4b range is probably tighter than u give him credit for. Even though u may be facing a strong V2, u have position which allows u to control action/pot size.

Flop is a fold 3-way, with others first to act ott.

As played, river is AI for value with < 1/2 PSB.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:03 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I call that tiny flop bet from V1 w/ my gutter and pair. No way I'm folding.

Turn is fine.

Once he checks river, I shove my last less-than-half-pot stack in the middle. It's hard for him to fold two pair.

The only way I check is if he's the type to check the 8 to keep rake down or "keep it friendly" or something like that. We have a few players who will do that.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:24 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I think flop is closer to a raise than a Fold. We should be able to get V2 off pretty much any 1 pair hand and we are crushing V1s range.

If you think V2 will perceive your river shove as very polarized (straights and missed heart draws), then it's a value shove.

If V2 will perceive your range as nutted, then we are at the bottom of our value range and we should just check back.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:18 PM   #11
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I'd 4! backraise pre. V1 has a super wide range and so does V2 if he doesn't 4!. You should win this hand preflop like 80% of the time. Make it $225 and jam all flops if called.

Flop call is fine for 4.5:1 and closing the action. Jam the turn. Neither villain should have many 8s in their ranges (maybe six 98s/87s). You can get called by a ton of draws and two pair hands.

Absolutely shove river as played. V2 never checks 8x. Again, a ton of worse two pair hands out there. Maybe even one pair since V2 will be getting close to 4:1 on a call.
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:37 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Target JT/QThh, thats gonna be his most likely hand. Id under bet the river like 110-125, if hes good hes folding everything you beat but might call a small bet.

Checking back is fine too since there is little chance he'll call off without an 8/TT/QQ.

Flop is borderline but spazz fish guy makes things different.
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:15 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samo View Post
I'd 3bet pre and call SB 4-bet based on your read of him having ATC.
I legitimately thought of 3betting V2 in this spot but I was positive that V1 in the SB was already going to 3bet or he would 4bet me. My concern was that if I 3bet and SB 4bet then Id be opening up V2 to 5bet shove and look to go aipf against V1 with tons of dead money in the pot. Is 99 strong enough to play an $1800 pot 3 ways aipf with this type of dynamic?

I even considered back raising after V2 called V1s 3bet pre, but would my sizing basically have had to been big enough to commit me so that V2 wouldn't try to jam $700 effective overtop?
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:44 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojojo16 View Post
I legitimately thought of 3betting V2 in this spot but I was positive that V1 in the SB was already going to 3bet or he would 4bet me. My concern was that if I 3bet and SB 4bet then Id be opening up V2 to 5bet shove and look to go aipf against V1 with tons of dead money in the pot. Is 99 strong enough to play an $1800 pot 3 ways aipf with this type of dynamic?

I even considered back raising after V2 called V1s 3bet pre, but would my sizing basically have had to been big enough to commit me so that V2 wouldn't try to jam $700 effective overtop?
You can 4-bet to a size that allows you to 4-bet/fold if you're not comfortable stacking off. This is probably near the bottom of the range you take this line with so he's not exploiting you if you take this line.

Your range is still uncapped due to the dynamic with V1, so V2 shouldn't have reason to suspect you are often light and shouldn't be getting way out of line too often.

However I think I'd call it off because it seems unlikely V2 would flat a premium pair, I really don't expect him to jam on you often, though.
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:18 PM   #15
niceguy22
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Bit of a strange line by a good villain. Possible hands are: TT, 77 and 66 (both discounted), T9. These are all sorta weird bets on the turn tho so id discount ALL of these. So whats left? Id put some 8x in his range as well as some bluffs with hearts. Once you call turn, hes putting you on hearts or 8x as well, maybe exactly 99 although thats a small part.
Not sure how much sense a river bet makes here. I agree we are usually winning but does villain really think we call a value bet without an 8? If not, its a pretty reasonable spot for him to check call his straight if he doesnt have the T of hearts. I think i check river
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Old 03-02-2017, 06:35 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

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Originally Posted by niceguy22 View Post
Bit of a strange line by a good villain. Possible hands are: TT, 77 and 66 (both discounted), T9. These are all sorta weird bets on the turn tho so id discount ALL of these. So whats left? Id put some 8x in his range as well as some bluffs with hearts. Once you call turn, hes putting you on hearts or 8x as well, maybe exactly 99 although thats a small part.
Not sure how much sense a river bet makes here. I agree we are usually winning but does villain really think we call a value bet without an 8? If not, its a pretty reasonable spot for him to check call his straight if he doesnt have the T of hearts. I think i check river
So thats exactly what he did. He c/c the river with 88. I was left really confused if he trapped me perfectly or if this is standard. He mentioned afterwards that when i called on the turn he thought i could have a combo draw that missed on the river and he wanted to give me a chance to bluff it off.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:00 PM   #17
TexasPokerCards
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojojo16 View Post
So thats exactly what he did. He c/c the river with 88. I was left really confused if he trapped me perfectly or if this is standard. He mentioned afterwards that when i called on the turn he thought i could have a combo draw that missed on the river and he wanted to give me a chance to bluff it off.
What combos draws could you have in your range here that called the flop?
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:37 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojojo16 View Post
I legitimately thought of 3betting V2 in this spot but I was positive that V1 in the SB was already going to 3bet or he would 4bet me. My concern was that if I 3bet and SB 4bet then Id be opening up V2 to 5bet shove and look to go aipf against V1 with tons of dead money in the pot. Is 99 strong enough to play an $1800 pot 3 ways aipf with this type of dynamic?

I even considered back raising after V2 called V1s 3bet pre, but would my sizing basically have had to been big enough to commit me so that V2 wouldn't try to jam $700 effective overtop?
Your image is TAGish in the eyes of V2, so I don't see a reason he would think u were 3b light.

Call 4b by SB if he went over the top, but fold to V2 5b as 99 doesn't make the bottom of a calling range.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:43 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Backraise 4bet pre.
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Old 03-02-2017, 09:44 PM   #20
mojojo16
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

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Originally Posted by TexasPokerCards View Post
What combos draws could you have in your range here that called the flop?
J9hh maybe?
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:51 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Id flat flop, Shove turn. Get it in when we have the best hand. Even if we flat and villain checks we shove still.


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Old 03-02-2017, 11:17 PM   #22
niceguy22
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

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Originally Posted by TexasPokerCards View Post
What combos draws could you have in your range here that called the flop?
Tx mostly. Maybe J9 but flop call is pretty ambitious with this.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:21 PM   #23
BigPavelski
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

You need to fold flop and check back river
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:07 AM   #24
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojojo16 View Post
So thats exactly what he did. He c/c the river with 88. I was left really confused if he trapped me perfectly or if this is standard. He mentioned afterwards that when i called on the turn he thought i could have a combo draw that missed on the river and he wanted to give me a chance to bluff it off.
If he checks to let you bluff your missed draws, is he calling with two pair hands too? Because if he does then it's a good shove. If he takes a different line with those then it's a clear check back. But I guess you have to know him pretty well and it all depends on the previous dynamic between the two of you.
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:16 AM   #25
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Re: 2/5NL - Set on river: bet or check back?

I get why its not super exciting to GII pre with 99, but if you backraise 4 bet here its an instacall if V2 shoves. What is he call/shoving with? it would just be a bluff or a (likely weaker) PP.

Your reads on V2 are weak. If he is the best player at the casino and you are a regular you ought to know how he plays more than just that he is good.

I would shove this river against this opponent. Against a regular, especially a good one, you need to be able to bet for thin value on the river to balance your range, because if your river bets are highly polarized, it lets villan hero call you with almost anything to shut down any river bluffing on your part.

Id figure him for 2 pair which may call, or Tx which likely folds (unless he thinks your range is highly polarized). Most likely hand 87.
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