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Old 08-22-2017, 04:50 PM   #1
polakpoker4
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$2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

This was a Friday night $2/5 game that was playing fairly loose but nothing too crazy.

Villain (BB) is a younger Asian guy that was playing pretty LAGy up to this point. I've played with him once before and he was playing a bit looser than last time so probably getting a decent run of cards as he didn't show down any real junk. Seen him barrel a few times with FDs and was generally hitting so had built up a decent stack at this point.

Hero (SB) is a younger white guy who is hating life with BB beside him (actively looking to move to a better seat). I had played a few hands with BTN where I cbet flop and/or barrelled turn to fold to aggression after BTN made it obvious he made the nuts.

HJ/BTN: Both loose/passive players. BTN was involved in a few hands with Hero but nothing relevant to the hand.

OTTH:

Hero ($500) gets dealt QJ in SB. Folds to HJ who limps, BTN limps. Hero raises to $40, Villain takes a couple seconds and ends up calling. HJ and BTN both call.

I went for the iso here as I felt comfortable I could play well with QJs here against 2 fishier opponents. I know I have loose aggro behind but we're not that deep and he wasn't loose enough that I thought he would always flat here just to be in position on me with the 2 players in LP anyway.

Flop ($160): TT3

Hero checks, Villain checks, HJ checks, BTN checks.

After Villain calls the way he did preflop (maybe reading too much into it?), I was hesitant about cbetting into 3 people even though it's such a dry board. Looking at it now though, I think he'll play pretty straightforward with his overcards since both the limpers are behind to act still. I also have decent overcards and backdoors.

Turn ($160): 4

Hero bets $100, Villain raises to $250, folds to Hero, Hero ???

Once it checks through and I pick up the FD, I decided that was enough incentive for me to bet. I think I could've gotten away with like $75 here and it would've been better for the times I don't take down the pot.

When he raises me, I'm a little lost as I don't expect him to raise with Tx given how shallow we are. He can make a PSB OTR and get stacks in. He might also want to keep the limpers in with some random hands they might peel. On the other hand, both limpers are still behind and could easily be slowplaying a T so bluff raising me here seems reckless as well. Once it folds back to me, I don't think I have the odds to call for the FD (especially with a paired board) but his line seems a bit FOS. Meh, thoughts?
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:02 PM   #2
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

1) Why wouldn't he raise your turn bet with Tx if he thinks you can have exactly what you have here? I think it's definitely possible.

2) You yourself said that he wouldn't bluffraise here with 2 players behind as they could easily have a slowplayed Tx, so he's less likely to be bluffing.

3) When you bet the turn into 3 opponents, are you expecting medium PPs/other 2p hands/other draws to fold? If not, what's your plan when you whiff river?

With an aggro behind and shallow stacks-just completing pre might be better imo.
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:33 AM   #3
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Check turn mostly or use a smaller sizing

He could easily have pocket fours
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:09 AM   #4
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Pre: I'm raising this pre almost never with just 100bb eff. I think QJs plays much better multi-way anyways. My big-bet from SB range would be more like AJo+/99+/KJs+. Ideally, we're trying to get HU vs a fit/fold player where our mid to high pair and high card has showdown value should we have to check down a lot of dynamic/wet boards. Q-high OOP sucks.

Flop: If we took this route & are repping a strong range, I actually don't mind c-betting this particular flop ~$85-110 even though we're 1st to act into 3 others. We have two backdoor draws & overcards. I think our c-bet would get a lot to fold in the first place & we can still barrel lots of turns.

Turn: I think we gotta check this back & hope for a good river if we checked flop. I'm fine with playing a bit face-up & calling a reasonable bet from the field. We can improve to a hand that can beat trips. By leading out, we're really just bloating the pot up for PP+, maybe even A high. Facing the raise to $250, I'd probably fold. It's likely we could only have 7 clean outs.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:52 AM   #5
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

I can take or leave both the preflop raise/a flop cbet.

Definitely checking turn though, your line is very obviously FOS and I doubt we're getting three folds. Folding to the raise, although there's a chance it's a bluff he'd be taking a risk with the fishy players behind, as you note.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:38 AM   #6
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Preflop: Folds to HJ & Button who limp; you raise to $40 pre & watch not only the BB cold call, but the two limpers as well.

Are they incapable of putting you on a range going into the flop?

I find that a preflop raise like this, OOP, is often TT+/AQs/AKo/s.
When you can raise in the SB to $40, after 2 limpers & get 3 callers, I don't see the value in raising when you could call & get 5:1 [before the rake] to see a flop. That's assuming that the BB doesn't raise.

Your hand has so much potential vs. bad players, I don't understand why trying to win $15 pre is your primary goal. Winning $15 almost every time is great but that's obviously not happening at this table.

Hypothetical: You complete preflop, BB raises to $40; both limpers call & now you are getting ~3.5:1, should you choose to play your OOP. I fold, however, I don't have a 10BB+ winrate over my last 2500 hrs of play, so I'm not a Crusher.

If you do decide to play in the above scenario, you get to check the flop if you so choose & BB has no idea where you're at, other than the fact that your range is capped.

I am checking the turn in the hopes that I can see the river for a decent price.

"It is not the player who has position that wins the most money, it is the player who has position most often." - Tommy Angelo
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:51 AM   #7
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$2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Pre is good and like the sizing

Flop whether I cbet depends on a lot of factors - how active have I been, do I have a winning or losing image, how sticky are villains, have I been raising a lot lately etc.

If the bb lag is competent I don't expect him to flat with like 77 with two people left to act. Anyway overall I'd prob lean toward cbetting due to backdoor equity but would prob be inclined to check if it were like 772 no spade.

Turn is a definite check for me. Some 2/5s are very weak games and you can get the bet thru vs non thinking players but even then I'm not using this sizing, I'd go smaller. You really don't rep anything and even fish will know that

Once you're raised the jig is up and it's a fold

If you're thinking about making a sick move and shoving to get this guy off his hand I would advise against it both in this hand and in general. I used to play this way and there's just no need for it at these stakes (or even 5/10 really). Half the time they don't fold their crap and the other half they have a hand that they "can't possibly" have (e.g. AT)
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:42 AM   #8
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Very standard complete pre.

As played:
Bet small otf, like 1/4 or 1/3 pot. We only do this bc we have two 3 card draws to go with our initiative. For example we'd x/fold on 883. We use small sizing bc villain continuing ranges are inelastic on this texture.

As played, check turn. Nothing has changed, between 3 players you arent folding out any pair and sometimes not even A high. This used to be a big leak of mine. "Oh now i have a draw time to bet!". But you dont have the required fold equity. Take your free/cheap equity to a river.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:30 AM   #9
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Ava are you really limping pre?

I always thought my game was wayyy over-completey out of the blinds, I can't stand playing OOP. But QJss is getting raised virtually always, for me. QJo I'm limping tho.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:45 AM   #10
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

I agree with completing pre. We're left with tiny equity most of the time and OOP in a bloated pot with queen high, and our speculative hand has some potential in a 4 way pot.

I don't like leading the turn, I would rather try to get there as cheaply as possible, on a paired board with a queen high FD. as played fold (the raise isn't trying to fold you out, plus the board is paired).
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:12 AM   #11
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Not to derail but out of curiosity what are you raising out of SB given this action?

Assuming non-whale, standard villains, I'm raising something like 88+, TJs+ AJo+ which I thought is lolstonetight but maybe not
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:16 AM   #12
Avaritia
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
Ava are you really limping pre?
Yes. My top reason is also my worst reason. Ive recently come across an exceptional player, likely the best Ive ever seen play live poker. And he limps this hand here. Actually, he will go as far as open limping it.

Ive spent a great deal of time thinking about why. Completing the sb makes sense, we have worst position, after 2 limps our iso frequency goes down, hand plays great mulitway, etc.

But open limping/overlimping ip?? I still cant fully explain that one.

I think I'd start with a question. Be results oriented. Take this exact hand history. Knowing what you know now, that we got a bb cold call and 2 limp callers, would you have done anything differently? Made it $50? 60? $15?

I think if we approach live poker with the assumption each hand will be 4-5 ways on average (a safe assumption), then the way we want to play these specific hands changes. I think our objective changes from raising a range of hands for value and some balance to instead making incredibly exploitative splits with our range between max value (QQ+,AK), ok value okay speculative (99-JJ), and speculative hands (78s-AQs,22-88).

He raises the first range and limps most of the second and third. Ive seen him open limp TT utg and overlimp AQs otb. I believe what he is doing is realizing the multiway equity of the field and instead of using bloated raise sizes that still dont work (see OP), he is turning them into nut mining hands 6-8 ways. Or playing cautiously for sdv otherwise.
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:21 AM   #13
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
Not to derail but out of curiosity what are you raising out of SB given this action?

Assuming non-whale, standard villains, I'm raising something like 88+, TJs+ AJo+ which I thought is lolstonetight but maybe not
88+, AJ or AQ+ depending on the game, KQ, KQs+ ATs+
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:53 PM   #14
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Very standard complete pre.

As played:
Bet small otf, like 1/4 or 1/3 pot. We only do this bc we have two 3 card draws to go with our initiative. For example we'd x/fold on 883. We use small sizing bc villain continuing ranges are inelastic on this texture.

As played, check turn. Nothing has changed, between 3 players you arent folding out any pair and sometimes not even A high. This used to be a big leak of mine. "Oh now i have a draw time to bet!". But you dont have the required fold equity. Take your free/cheap equity to a river.
My whole thought process on the turn...


Thanks for all the great replies so far! I am a little surprised to hear the limp preflop though. I understand that it sucks when we end up in this exact situation but wouldn't something like QJs play quite well against 2 limp/calling ranges here? Assuming that the actual villain in the hand will be folding like 70%+ of the time and we're either HU or at worst 3 way with 2 ranges that we likely dominate?
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:57 PM   #15
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Re: $2/$5NL: QJs OOP vs Aggro

Both raise and complete are fine. I like your raise to iso the 2 fishier guys I probably would've done the same

Your check on flop is the right play. Leading into three other players first to act with effectively Q high and only backdoor draws is a mistake. If you were heads up thats a different story.

Your bet on the turn is thin but I like it and I think its a winning play, you extract value from smaller flush draws, have good equity against 55-99 and even some slowplayed 10s. However its good to note that having QJss in your check call range here is also very strong. With that being said, you have to be ready to bomb almost all rivers even if you don't get there for the play to be profitable. WP, now fold, even though hes giving you great odds you don't have the correct equity to call because you could be drawing dead. V will play 33 and 44 this way.

Last edited by flopturntree; 08-23-2017 at 06:14 PM.
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