Playing on a loose action 2/5 table (Friday evening) with a mandatory straddle and most players are deep stack. I'm in SB with AK off suit and the pot is not raised with a couple of limpers and I decide to raise to $65 ($1400 eff stack). A tight nit player ($500 eff) flats and a loose aggressive asian guy ($1100 eff) takes two fistfull of chips and slams a $500 3-bet….what is that!

I ended up folding because I am risk averse and didn't want to shove here (only move) and race for this much money. But still it begs the question, what gives?

Raising to $65 was far too large, and now we just fold. Limp/huge bets are mostly huge hands. The few times it is some strange AK or whatever, who cares?

Why is $65 too big? We are OOP, so we don't really mind taking down the pot now, and although OP didn't list how many limpers there were, we are probably making what is close to a pot sized raise. IMO, in situations like this if I raise to $40 or $50, everyone is going to call and I'm going to have a hard time playing what is likely going to be A high or TPTK OOP to three or more players.

I agree, as played fold.

Has this guy made crazy 3-bets before?

While I hate to just muck this based on the action before you, I'm compelled to do so with AK. He could be playing ATC. So while you are likely a favorite in this scenario, I'm not a big fan of gambling for my whole stack here with just A high.

I really hate having to throw it away, but to me, it's just not worth it.

First, let's pretend he just shoved pre flop and let's also assume the nit limp/caller will always fold. We pretend he shoves pre flop because if we just flat, pot will be $1000 w/ ~$500 left and we will often be committed on the flop.

Let's range him at 2 combos of AA, 2 combos of KK, AK, and QQ. I removed one combo each of AA/KK to account for the fact that he would probably have raised the first time around with these hands. A limp/raise UTG with these hands would be more common, but limping behind a limper is a stranger play with big pairs.

So 2/19 times he has AA, 2/19 times he has KK, 9/19 times he has AK, and 6/19 times he has QQ.

So 2/19 times we're dead (to simplify, assuming we're drawing dead against AA), 2/19 times we have 30% equity, 9/19 times we chop, and 6/19 times we have 43% equity.

EV calling pre (with a plan to check/call flop in the dark or shove flop in the dark) = 2/19 (-$1035) + 2/19 (.3*$1230 - .7*$1035) + 9/19 ($98) + 6/19 (.43*$1230 - .57*$1035)

= -109 + -37 + 46 + -19.3 = -$119

Fold preflop.

ANL,

You may not have read the hand history correctly. This is a straddled pot. So game is basically playing 2/5/10 NL. A $65 SB raise with AK over 2 $10 limps is NOT "far too large." Maybe it is a tiny bit too large, but that's it.

As far as everyone who wants to fold AK here, I would tell you that this is a fist pump shove. Hero is basically 110 bbs effective against the LAG Asian. Given that the LAG Asian took a FOS line that doesn't seem at all like QQ+ (almost no one would 3bet to $500 IN POSITION over a $65 raise with KK+ unless he were a scared money nit...and Asian LAG DOES NOT = Scared Money Nit), I would be super-happy to shove AK for stacks here preflop.

AK 110bbs deep versus a LAG Asian taking a FOS preflop line = Fist Pump Shove Preflop While Wiping The Drool/Slobber From Your Chin.

If anyone of you guys are folding AK in this spot, then you just hate money.

2/5/10 with 2 limpers (37 in pot) and hero makes it 65. I don't think this is too big at all.

Also, unless I missed it, I can't tell if V is BB/Straddle or one of the limpers. If he is BB/Straddle then I'm shoving for sure. If he limped in early position, then I might be able to find a fold because live players seem to love limp/RR from EP with monsters.

First, you are absolutely correct that I skimmed over and missed the straddle.

Two limpers of 10, 27 in pot, I would 3 bet here 110 bb deep to no more than $45-50. So $65 is a fair bit over the top for me (even with straddle) since I am not trying to take it down preflop at all.

If the villains are more drooly and gambly though I can see it still though. I dont go out of my way to force others to play correctly is why i say I wouldnt go that high.

I still doubt that I shove though unless i have seen this guy do random large bet spews with less than pairs or AK. Like if i know that this is always at least a pair of 77 and hardly ever AK (which is what i would bet on), then im not interested in racing for 1100 HU here as a 55/45 dog. I dont think my $65 warrants me backing it up for 1100.

I would ask then, what range do you really expect to see V with here, and how is it going to shake out in a race EV wise? I expect mid pairs like 90%+ here.

Again, if this villain is remotely capable of doing this with AJss then off to the races just fine. We havent heard any such tendency, and I usually never see this almost ever (its usually some mid pair) thus I assume the pairs more often and fold.

And to the OP, raising huge as you stated you wanted to take it on down is a mistake since your hand has value and your intention is to make others play perfectly and fold. Your better overall intention should be to strive to be able to play better postflop so you dont have to play as defensive preflop. This will help you make more in the long run of course.

ANL,
Table is described as a Loose Action table on a friday evening. At tables like that, in my opinion, everyone who is calling 50 is also calling 65.


Also, if you have blinds (7), a straddler (10), and a couple limpers (20), I read the pot as 37.

As I mentioned, if they will call it or even higher, I would 3 bet whatever one or even both would call. If they will donkey on in for $75 then by all means we should. I based my answer on the OP stating that he just wanted to take it down so I figured his intention was not so much that they would call this bet, regardless of current pot size.

Just taking it down was the point in question that I spoke of and was not in agreement with. If I just wanted to take it down, I might raise it even larger with a moderate hand such as A8cc being just as happy folding out AT A9 and even broadways such as QJ QT that have decent equity vs my hand, but will fold most likely to my 3 bet. I still retain a little playability post equity wise sometimes, and have to rely on outplaying any callers otherwise. Sometimes just plain giving up on certain flop textures etc.

With the AK though, I want the small pairs and suited cards to make the huge mistake of calling here. I gain when they do. Being in tough spots postflop is a part of the game that we have to accept and learn to work our way through skillfully. We will never arrive to this higher plateau if we continually try to avoid these tough postflop spots.

Guys, thanks for the comments. Just to clarify there were two limpers, I was in the SB, nit player that flatted was in the BB and the LAG Asian V who slammed the $500 3-bet was the straddle (pot $37 + $65 = $102). So that takes away the UTG limp re-raise with QQ+ possibility and based on your comments and the ones at the table it most likely would have been a race against mid-pocket pairs 77 to JJ.

Still happy with my fold but I see how my $65 raise may have been a little much which perhaps incited the large 3-bet vice simply calling and going HU to the flop. I guess V was content to take it down by putting extreme pressure back to me.

Not a single thing said here that isn't just plain obvious.

Yes, obviously, but clearly OP needs help to determine that number.

I think even OP figured that out...

Really, you don't always cbet?

Very obvious sir. If people make mistake, you benefit.

But what is this huge mistake?

Thanks for the pep talk.

As for bet sizing, it is always going to be table dependent. We aren't looking for everyone to fold, we just want to get it to HU ideally. If a tight-nit at the table is calling $65, clearly $65 is not too big for this table. In general, you don't want to make more than a PSB because you'll drive too many folds. That means a bet of between $55-$60. As ATsai said, it is a little big but not a huge amount. I'd just make sure you'd bet the same amount under the same circumstances with AA.

For the rest of the hand, all the real action is going on pf. After the flop, hero will have to fold if there isn't an ace or king and the villain will fold if an ace or king comes on the flop and he can't beat it. If there is further action otherwise, it is going to be bad for Hero most of the time. So Hero is looking at betting $435 to win $600. We needs 42% equity. To get it, the villain needs to be able to limp/huge raise AQ or worse non-paired hands. Since dusting off $1000 bothers many 2/5 players and causes them to tilt off more money than the small equity involved in shoving they might have, I'd fold.

If the villain had a hand like T8cc, A3dd or even 22 I would bet $100 vs a doughnut that he would rub it in your face and show the table. they almost always do to add insult to injury. More likely he had 88 99 and decided that it would be of no consequence to show that. And Im fine folding vs that. He is the one that made the mistake, not you.

This is a SB vs Straddle preflop war. A conservative range for the Asian's LAG $500 Overbet 3bet range out of straddle over SB $65 raise looks like this: AQ+/TT-QQ. Note that I didn't include KK+ because an Asian LAG would almost never 3bet so ridiculously huge when he had POSITION on the SB raiser.

How does AKo do against this conservative range? Well, a quick simulation would show that Hero's AKo has 54% equity against that "conservative" range. Easy +EV shove.

Even if you include 2 combo of AA and 2 combos of KK (which I doubt the Asian LAG would ever Overbet so huge anyway...but let's include 33% of combos just for kicks), Hero's AKo still has 52% equity against that range. Easy +EV shove.

Against "less conservative ranges," it is pretty clear that Hero could even have 55%+ equity with AKo against the Asian LAG's gigantic 3bet overbet range.

FWIW, any serious range equity analysis will show you that it is a clear mistake to fold AKo here against an Asian LAG who is 3betting ridiculously huge here when he has position on Hero. We are most likely 50%+ equity OR BETTER against his range, so the best play by far is shoving preflop.

FWIW, if this Villain could have 99/TT in his 3bet range, he could easily have AQ in his 3bet range. There are 16 combos of AQ and only 12 combos of 99/TT. I see no reason to expect us to be 100% flipping against a mid pair when we face this gigantic 3bet. We will be up against AQ at least 10% of the time...especially if we think the Asian LAG is capable of 3betting pairs as low as 99.

Unsure if you guys play with many Asian LAGs, but I would an Asian LAG to 3bet more frequently with AQ than he would 3bet with 99.

Lastly, even if we ranged the Asian LAG's range as: AQ suited, AK, TT-QQ, KK (2 combos), AA (2 combos), then we still have 46% equity with AKo.

With the dead money already in the pot, 46% equity means that we have a slightly +EV shove.

And that is basically the worse case scenario...where Asian LAG doesn't 3bet offsuit AQ and has 33% of his KK+ combos still in his range on top of all TT-QQ combos.

In reality, I suspect that we are doing WAY BETTER THAN 46% equity here with AKo. Nevertheless, it is nice to know that we are still +EV to shove AKo even against the "worst case scenario" range.

I see ur in LA, AT, so you certainly could have a better idea of Asian LAGS. Ive just never seen myself many do this or had many others tell me about it. I would think logically that limping 88 99 TT then deciding to make a huge raise taking the pot down over a possible squeeze would seem plausible as we see that from many different types of players, all the while they wouldnt limp the AQ to begin with.

AQ is the make or break hand in this scenario to me. Pairs and AK I dont care to fool with for 1100.

Now if ur telling me you see Asian LAGTARDS limping AQ then backraising huge, then I believe you and agree to gii. Absolutely.

The Asian LAG Villain was the straddle...not a limper.