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/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? /5NL: Losing Value with big flops?

02-21-2014 , 11:54 AM
Hand 1 I'd raise to $35 pre after two limps. May even raise to $50 pre if I kept getting 3+ calls with $35. I'd even flat or raise to $100. If villain is bad and can't fold TP then raise to $125
Hand 2 I'd lead for $110 to $120. You don't want it checked through but cr is too strong. You don't want to bet pot or more and chase away weak draws and top pair but you still want to charge draws a lot
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-21-2014 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
Hand 1: Flop is dry enough and villains flop reraise is strong enough that I could fold here. This is making a read and going with it, your pot committed if you call so either shove or fold. Absent any other information or read on villain, I'm flipping a coin in my head and going that way.
This was my first thought too, but thinking closer we can't fold here. Only 77 has us beat and we chop with KQ. Also because our raise was so small pre, villain could easily have Q7 or K7 here. He might have AK if he's bad. AK is a fold here. AA is tough but KQ is a shove
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-21-2014 , 12:07 PM
Just saw results. Hand 1 there's not much you can do, villain put in half his stack and folded two pairs. That was a terrible fold and he may as well have any two cards if he doesn't expect you to shove worse considering his reraise committed you. If everyone is so concerned about folding out worse, I'd click it back to $90 on flop.
Hand 2, I'd almost always shove here. But if you have a read villain can fold an overpair a lot, flatting flop and check shoving turn is best
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-21-2014 , 12:10 PM
As I say routinely, there is no way the proper adjustment is to start slowplaying more.

The proper adjustment is to play more aggressively in other hands so that our opponents won't want to fold here.

(Also, in both of these hands, Hero made a small bet or raise followed by a bigger 3bet or 4bet. This smacks of "trappy". If Hero had used bigger bet sizing, I think both of these hands would have gone better.)
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-21-2014 , 12:57 PM
Hand 1: I think you need a better read on villain here. Villain is loose and passive enough pre to limp/call with K7o but aggressive and good enough post to reraise/fold two pair when he puts in half your stack? That is an awfully weird profile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999
This was my first thought too, but thinking closer we can't fold here. Only 77 has us beat and we chop with KQ. Also because our raise was so small pre, villain could easily have Q7 or K7 here. He might have AK if he's bad. AK is a fold here. AA is tough but KQ is a shove
I disagree. Card combinations mean there are more ways he can have Q7/K7 here, but when an unknown villain reraises flop, I'm weighting his range towards sets. This isn't an automatic fold, but on such a dry board, I'm not just automatically going all in with top two either.

Hand 2: This board is rather wet, check/raise or bet/raise is the way to go here. Once you bet, villain raises and everybody else folds, flatting is an option. I would want a better read on villain, but he looks to have the right sort of profile. Tight enough to fold when we reraise flop but good enough to bet against hero's likely draws if we call flop and check turn. In general though, I'm aiming to get as much in as quickly as possible on such a wet flop. Even if hero can be pretty sure villain has an over pair, there are lot of turn cards that can kill the action.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-21-2014 , 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
As I say routinely, there is no way the proper adjustment is to start slowplaying more.

The proper adjustment is to play more aggressively in other hands so that our opponents won't want to fold here.
but in this hand, at this time, hero has virtually no history with either of the villains.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-21-2014 , 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MK7749
Hand 1 is a fold. What is he doing this with? We don't need to go broke with a big hand every time. This is so weighted towards a set. I guess he could be doing this with a wierd AA but that's the only I see he could have we beat here.

Hand 2 is easy shove given the flop and range of flush draws with overs dominate his range IMO. Sets make a small portion of it.
Where do you play? Disagree on both hands.

Hand 1, your'e deep enough to raise to about $125 and evaluate turn. You're in position. Bet any card if checked to. If an Ace or 9 bet/fold. If he bets into you I'm probably folding an Ace or 9 and going with read on any other card.

Hand 2 I prefer to bet 50-60% of pot and hope preflop raiser has an over pair and re raises. If preflop raiser just calls and no one else does I bet any turn. If anyone else calls I bet any non flush or straight card that hits.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-22-2014 , 04:31 AM
Obviously in after results posted. However my thoughts:

Hand 1

Don't mind the raise here, but once he 3-bets, we obviously are deciding here wether or not we are going to "go with it." I think we must consider just flatting his flop 3! and getting remainder in on any turn as 4 betting the flop is just do incredibly strong that all but the biggest drooler is gonna put you on a set and fold. But if we tank-call, then I think it's likely that villain bets the rest on the turn, and even if not we can jam and it looks more bluff like than the flop 4bet.

Hand 2

Once his raise eliminates the field, I again think we just flat and allow him to think we are in a draw or a stubborn TPTK type hand. And I either check the turn, if I know he will bet again, or I lead weird size attempting to induce. Say we call the $125 more. Pot is approx $400. Can we lead $100 on the turn making it look like we want to see the river for $100 repping the flush draw and get him to ship?

I play hand 2 far differently if either of the other villains comes along. But heads up, and feeling that V is hugely weighted to overpairs here, meaning he can only have 1 diamond, I don't want him to fold the flop.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-22-2014 , 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNTravis
Hand 1

Don't mind the raise here, but once he 3-bets, we obviously are deciding here wether or not we are going to "go with it." I think we must consider just flatting his flop 3! and getting remainder in on any turn as 4 betting the flop is just do incredibly strong that all but the biggest drooler is gonna put you on a set and fold. But if we tank-call, then I think it's likely that villain bets the rest on the turn, and even if not we can jam and it looks more bluff like than the flop 4bet.
Every time someone on the forum says this, it just rings totally hollow to me. Does that mean we ship AK here hoping to fold out a better hand? Does it mean we ship JT because we have monster fold equity? More importantly, does it mean we ship in this exact spot because a villain with 77 will put us on a bigger set and fold???
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-22-2014 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
As I say routinely, there is no way the proper adjustment is to start slowplaying more.

The proper adjustment is to play more aggressively in other hands so that our opponents won't want to fold here.

(Also, in both of these hands, Hero made a small bet or raise followed by a bigger 3bet or 4bet. This smacks of "trappy". If Hero had used bigger bet sizing, I think both of these hands would have gone better.)
Ding ding ding! on all points here.

If villains are giving you so much credit for monsters, start playing draws the same way. Not just big 15-out draws, either. Try this line w a gutshot and an over, or a straight draw with tainted flush draw outs.

Either they keep giving you credit and folding, or they start playing guessing games with top pair/overpairs. Either way, you win.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-22-2014 , 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
Every time someone on the forum says this, it just rings totally hollow to me. Does that mean we ship AK here hoping to fold out a better hand? Does it mean we ship JT because we have monster fold equity? More importantly, does it mean we ship in this exact spot because a villain with 77 will put us on a bigger set and fold???
No, because hero doesn't actually have a lot of FE here. The wonderful paradox of low stakes is that half the time villain will sigh and say "You probably have a set, I call" and show K7. You can sit there, wait to flop sets, shove those sets and still get called a lot. The flop 4 bet shove does have some FE, but it's not as much as it should against the average low stakes villain.

Any specific villain can vary widely of course.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-22-2014 , 03:48 PM
Hand 1: I'm raising to $150. The main threat here is J10, a hand that is currently in ALL the involved players' ranges. By just flatting, we are offering 4-1 pot odds and we will be giving them nearly the right immediate odds. In other words, by flatting, we all J10 to play perfectly against us.

Hand 2: I'm donking for a near pot sized bet.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote
02-22-2014 , 03:59 PM
I have now seen the results for the flop:

1. I'd raise just a bit more, like $130-$145. But $115 is alright too I think. If villain has exactly J10, then we are letting him draw correctly, but he could have just a K-X and we want to keep him in. Making it $115 also protects us from the in-between players who may also have J10.

2. $60 is WAY too small. This is a pretty draw heavy board, and we will be offering better than 3-1 to the first player, 4-1 or more if there's an additional caller.

As played, hand 1 is a certain shove, unless we have a ridiculous read that someone can only make the play with 77.

Hand 2 is closer...but I think I still make another raise, hoping villain puts us on a combo draw. Villain has almost turned his hand face up as a decent overpair.
/5NL: Losing Value with big flops? Quote

      
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