Hero ($500): Late 20's reg, just sat down in the game about 40 minutes ago. No big pots yet, moved over from the 1/2 game since the 2/5 looked good.

V1 ($1100): 40's black guy, playing almost every hand, bound to bust sooner or later .

V2 ($1300): 20's white guy, seems of the straightforward TAG-ish type, haven't seen him play any big pots yet.


V2 is in BB, hero is UTG+1, V1 is in MP.

Hero dealt JJ

Hero opens to $25, V1 calls, another player on the button calls, V2 calls.

Flop ($102): 256

V2 checks, hero bets $75, V1 calls, button calls, V2 calls.

Turn ($402): 8

V2 checks. Hero? Give up or jam it in?

I guess that the button here is sort of irrelevant?
No reads or description of him.

I really want to bet turn here just based on the presence of V1 in the hand. If he's playing most of the deck then 54o, 54s, 64o, 6s, 76o, 76s, 87o, 87s, 33, 44, 77, 99, TT are all possible hands that he can have here that we are still miles ahead of. And he will likley call off with all of them.

But we are often beat here vs V2 as his range should be more weighted towards sets/two pair better over pairs when he does call the turn. When we bet and he folds, we were winning anyway most of the time.

If we think that V1 will play all of those hands pre flop, and call a shove, then shove. If we think that he would fold most or some of those to a shove, then check and just see what materializes.

I think I'm check raising all in here, you're beat to 66\88\QQ+ and in case they raise with a draw u bust em

Turn card is more likely to give vills a pair to go with a str draw than to actually complete one.. So i would bet for value

Give up? Wat?

Also... You should have tried to get position on V1 and buyin to match his stack.

*grunch*

So we've got about a pot sized bet here. I don't think we can bet/fold, a bet would commit us. If we bet large, can we get better to fold or worse to call? I'd say better won't fold except possibly QQ, and worse usually won't call except possibly 87 or 76.

The 8 isn't a really great card. A ten would be an excellent card as would a two. The 8 completed two possible straights and 8-6 seems like it could be in their ranges more than something like J-6 or 10-6.

You didn't give any reads on the button btw.

If we have the best hand here more than 50% of the time, we can shove, but due to the large number of players, I'd say we don't have the best hand that often. I'm check/deciding based on the action.

Flop sizing is a little too big on that board. I would disguise my hand a little in this spot, cbet your usual amount. You want them (by "them" i pretty much mean V1) to call you wider with hands like A6/a5/45/67/89 and all pp's between 77-jj.

As played, turn sizing is a little awkward, I dont know how aggressive or stationy V1 is so it's hard to say whether it's a shove or check call here.

3/4 pot seems pretty standard for a cbet on this board, no? I'd size it the same if I had nothing.

Had the seat change button, nobody was moving.


Button is kind of irrelevant to the hand since he gets out of the way on turn, will post turn action in a bit.

Checking is fine. Probly calling most rivers.

Going 4 handed in the turn, I'm unexcited about having an OP. Nothing looks good and there are only 2 outs to improve. I'm looking to more keep everyone's range wider than worrying about a draw. The 8 didn't help any draws that should be out there, unless people are routinely calling gutshot draws. I check behind and pretend I have AK.

I hate the pre-flop raise here. It's like you put yourself in this ugly turn situation on purpose.

With only 100BB, and early position, you're going to the flop with an SPR somewhere between 4 and 10 depending on how many callers you get. Not ideal.

I can see merit in limp/calling for simply for set mining. I can see limp/re-raising, especially with V1 at the table. Either of these lines seem superior to the hand as played.

As played, just get to showdown.

Does V2 slowplay strong hands with V1 still in the hand. Wouldnt he be inclined to try and get value from V1 straight away. I kind of want to get value from V1 straight away and as such am leaning towards a shove

Why are we worried about 2 pair & sets given flop action? They're a tiny portion of V1's range simply because of how loose he is, and we have to think the other two players are usually raising 2pr+ otf rather than overcalling, right? (Especially 2 pair.) 77-TT/A6s/87s/76s are in those two players' ranges. Maybe 33/44 also. We have a PSB left, we're usually ahead here, we may be able to get thin value (particularly from V1), and giving everyone a free river is a disaster. I don't love this spot, but giving up seems out of the question. It looks like a decision between jamming and trying to gii against him over two streets.

Give me a range for V1, BTN, and V2 on the turn and I'll run this spot through odds oracle to find out how often someone has a hand that beats JJ and I'll post results when I get a chance.

bet 200 OTT then ship the river

Any post-flop image on V1? Is he betting worse, semi-bluffing, or is he more passive?

If the latter, I'd check to pot control. V2 check gives us little info as the board remains pretty innocent. Could be WA vs. TT/99 or WB vs. sets.

Eh tough spot here.

I'm likely jamming turn just because you said MP is likely going to run through his money soon and will likely call off behind here. Also I don't feel like the BB has a lot of sets in his range as he was the 4th person to call on the flop. I'm jamming but I'm not particularly thrilled about it.

Results:

Lol at results.

I think this makes thus ship even better.

Hes also calling if it's a 7 4 or 9.

I guess they are, LOL. I can only figure that V2 thought he had 10 clean outs total and V1 was floating.

I'll just note the logic of your argument would hold if Hero had AA, too. Are you proposing that he limp/call to set mine with those, too? If not, why is it different?

I doesn't hold quite the same for AA. With an SPR of 2-4, I think all overpairs are pretty much the same. With bigger SPR's, say 6-8, there becomes a little more disparity between AA/KK and JJ/TT. With the smaller pairs, SPR's are still low enoough, and hands strong enough, to play for stacks. It's just harder to get a worse hand to pay you off with a smaller overpair.

AA can get paid by top pair on K, Q, and J high flops alot more often than JJ can get paid by top pair on T, 9, and 8 high flops.

Saw results. You got unlucky to run into top of their range. I would still bet $200 on turn and call it off. If they're calling with that trash pre and post they can have lots of pairs+straight draws that you beat. Checking is terrible unless you plan to check fold turn.
Lesson here: at these loose tables you should be raising to $35 or even $50 UTG with JJ both for value and to get it down to 2 or 1 callers. This is exactly why getting 1 or 2 callers is generally better than 3+ calls esp with 100bb stacks. You end up committed or risking making a bad laydown whereas villains can play perfect against you if they have half a brain