$1/2 NL @ MDL

Just sat down, 2nd hand in, no real reads.

Effective stacks
SB - $325
CO - $400
Button (hero) - $300

I'm on the button with two black Kings.

Middle position raises to $10
Cutoff calls $10
I make it $40
SB calls $40
Folds to MP who folds as well
Cutoff calls $40

Flop J 3 8 rainbow (pot $125)

SB checks
CO checks
I bet $80
SB check raises to $180
CO folds
I shove, SB covers by a few bucks

Any advice or criticism, or is this a standard shove? Are we ever finding the fold button here?

Thanks!

Seems pretty standard. If you are viewed as spewy a J will call. If you are a nit, you are probably beat

It's hard to get value from worse if we shove, especially because it looks like we have what we have.

Tough part about this hand is villain's range is pretty narrow assuming villain is decent. What is he cold calling a 3bet with out of position? Probably JJ+. So we are ahead of one hand in his range (QQ) and crushed by the rest (AA, JJ) and obv chopping with the unlikely possibility that he has the other two kings.


It's unlikely he takes this line with worse, if you hate variance and are under rolled as most people that play live 1/2, I think folding is fine given you have no reads. If you're rolled, shoving is okay but I honestly expect to be run into the top of their range here.

All that being said, you're leaving out a lot of info here despite the fact that you just sat down. Is villain young? Old? White? Black? Asian? Chaldean? How are they dressed? Do they seem to carry themselves as an experienced player or do they seem to fumble with handling their chips?

You also might want to get into the practice of talking to players in these spots. A lot of times you can get players to respond to your questions and get an idea as to whether they are strong or not.

Live poker can give you tons of information without even witnessing a hand. You just need to look for it.

I might bet smaller, like $65 on this flop. Pretty dry board, 3 bet pot, don't want to scare anyone off. We're definitely stacking off here basically every time.

As played nh. Nothing else you can do readless. You lose to JJ or 88, and beat AJ and QQ, most likely.

Villain was older gentleman, white beard, hard of hearing, wearing an armed forces ballcap. He was involved in the first hand (which was wrapping up as I was settling in), and took it down without showing. Point definitely taken about talking to your opponent, however in this case it would have been difficult.

If the intention is that you're playing for stacks on this type of flop, I don't understand the logic of a $65 flop bet. I actually prefer betting $100-$120 on this flop and going all in on any turn. The pot size flop bet makes the decision easy no matter what villain does.

I think we have to puke fold here. The way he played it I expect to see JJ QQ AA and sometimes 88 and AJs. Sometimes I find old guys who will raise top pair "to see where they are at" but more often than not I expect a jack to donk bet at this board rather than check raise. We are more often crushed than we are ahead. Fold and move on.

Also I would make it 45 to 50 pre but that's just me.

Given info on villain, I probably sigh and call off. Old men are weird. Sometimes they play the most marginal hands like the nuts. However they also have a rep for being rocks. Sucks if you ran into JJ here, but what can you do? Gotta lose that money.

And +1 to betting smaller on the flop. It's hard to get three streets of value with an over pair when you're betting 2/3 pot each time. $~60 is fine.

The logic is that we want to keep in the marginal hands. Bad players will be tempted to call with two overcards, and we don't have to worry about pricing out any draws. Since our only real concern here is an Ace on the turn or river, I see no reason to scare away the fishes. As an added bonus, it makes a potential c/r easier to get away from. They both checked to us, meaning either a) their hands are marginal at best, or b) they've got a monster. A mammoth bet on the flop accomplishes nothing in either scenario. If we're ahead, we want to entice a call. If they're ahead, we just burned more money.

In my experience old people are VERY rarely making big check raises on boards like this lightly. The fact that you are new to the table makes me feel like it's even less likely for some reason.

tough spot, I guess you can fold here to a check raise.

I agree, reason being no one will try to c/r bluff a stranger before knowing there's a good chance he'll fold. I think there's a good chance we're looking at a set. Maybe QQ or AK getting tricky, but never AJ. It's honestly a coin flip, but I'd probably fold for the sake of variance and the fact that I'm honestly not properly rolled for 1/2.

$40 3 bet and two callers..welcome to 1/2.

Honestly, I'd probably fold here. Old nitty guys wouldn't know how to value bet you anyway, they're happy with the $180, instead of your stack. A check raise usually means a huge hand (sets etc.); they're always slow playing at 1/2.

+1
He doesn't check / small raise with another guy left to act with a J... Old people call with a J, they don't raise. Especially when the pot gets big
I fold

Sent from my SCH-I545 using 2+2 Forums

Really bad.

When people cold call squeezes they almost always have a pocket pair and are set mining. Sometimes it's like QJs but that doesn't make sense given action.

Fold to c/r otf.

Gotta fold on such a dry flop to c/r unless villains realllly fishy and will go nuts with jx here

Shove is fine, he will always be calling the $40 extra so we are basically getting 2:1 on our money....we are 39% against a range of AA KK QQ JJ 88 and AJs and 33.7% against a range of AA KK QQ JJ and 88 so it's slightly over BE and any other holdings in v range is bonus.

We are behind a lot on this flop but V will show up with the occasional AJ IMO

I would just push here. For one thing, the fact that he's cold-calling a large 3-bet out of position is actually evidence that he's not a standard nitty old guy, he's more likely to be on the loose side.

It's hard to have kings beat on this flop and there's already quite a bit of money sitting out there, so I go all-in.

Armed forces ball cap= dead to 2 outs. Lol. I'm kind of joking, but not really. I don't hate stacking off here, but I doubt you're good. These old guys that can't hear don't check raise as a bluff. He could have QQ, buy he does not have AJ. No way. Gross spot. I would make my decision based on feel. I know that is stupid to math guys around here. Ok, I don't like stacking off. I would fold.

I definitely see why a lot of people are saying fold, I agree that we are going to be behind and lose most of the time. But really given stack sizes and how the hand has played out WE HAVE TO CALL. We are slightly +ev against the tightest range I could possibly give him.

Old guys are generally nits but occasionally they will spew tptk or worse. Maybe he is just old and is misreading his hand and has A4

stipulated : that any age $1/$2 and/or $2/$5 player will take some "odd" approaches to the game and playing only once a week i personally have a limited sample size

i don't see villain having anything but JJ+ in his preflop calling range. the $40 3bet is "big" to most villains and often will drive them to only call with big pp

if this is true H's KK has enough equity to make a shove a marginally +ev move

however, i would remove QQ from V's range for c/r. i could see v donking out with QQ thinking his overpair is good but worried about A or K hitting turn or river or ck/call because he is worried about H having AA or KK.

KK v. AA KK & JJ h is 87-13 dog.

there are a number of uses for c/r but older low stakes player is probably just saying he wants to play a big pot because he thinks he has a monster.

i'd fold & save the $180 until i had a better feel for the table.

Are you actually saying you advocate a flat call? Why, because you seriously expect him to not immediately shove any turn card? Or you expect to get away from the hand somehow? The only thing that turn could do is kill our action with an Ace if he's holding QQ. Ship it or quit it.

Yeah the math guys won't like a fold but I strongly feel sometimes you go by feel and damn the math.

It would be a pretty sophisticated bluff with < KK after cold calling 20bb in SB.