It just seems as if a 5/T player would never expect a 2/5 player to fold AA (duh), KK, and maybe AK or QQ to a 5-bet. Maybe he had a read on hero, but I just can't see his doing this as a bluff -- if so, he has way more balls than I (but he should -- I am a woman).

I am interested to know what he'd do this with that we are ahead of? Would he do this with a pure bluff? AQ, TT, 76s?

(Sebastes, I think we posted at same time.)

I think this is the key point. Villain should know 4bets are pretty rare in low stakes. Why would he assume hero 4bets light enough to shove 5bet light? With no history on hero, villain must give a lot of respect to the 4bet. The widest range villain should give hero is JJ+/AK and villain says he beats that range.

Don't know about the math, but if I put V on JJ-AA and AK, I'd fold.

My 4-bet would have been smaller, though.

The main reason I say fold here is because you have no information about this guy other than he plays 5/10. Admittedly, I don't play 5/10 but it just seems so marginal when we have such limited information on this guy to assume he's 3b/5b light.

I would much rather wait for more information than have to try and guess what his range here is. As time goes on, if he continues doing this or I start seeing his showdown hands, then I can make a better educated guess as to what his range is.

Truth is, if I would continue I would much rather 4 bet than flat bc most likely the other players in between will call as well and I will be in worst position in multi way pot.

I just think in this specific situation you will get owned way too much when villain flats or shoves your 4bet and it's better to just give up the $25 at this point in the game and wait a couple more orbits.

I agree a call is pretty thin but our 4-bet somewhat commits us against a range we chop or are racing against at best.

Java is correct a smaller 4-bet say $250 makes it a easy fold.

This hand was at Aria, not Red Rock. The RR 2/5 game can play pretty big though, seen lots of big pots with marginal hands go down.

I'm not sure what you are arguing about here but it seems to just be semantics. It's a $625 call to win a $1900 pot 625/1900 = 33% aka 2 to 1.

We have 43% vs TT+/AK and 36.6% vs JJ+/AK, but if V thinks I 4b AK always vs button 3b, he probably ships with 99+?

I still don't see how 4-betting with JJ in this spot is anything other than terrible. What worse hands are we really expecting villain to continue with here? His continuation range vs a 4bet should either be flipping with us or have us crushed and in the games I play in that's being super optimistic (haven't played ARIA 2/5 or 5/10 in 2 years so can't comment on those dynamics).

Is there much of a difference between $325/$250 though? If he ships and we have $250 in then we need 36.8% to call instead of 32.8%. The smaller sizing also gives him more FE and should actually widen his shoving range IMO.

What does V do with AK/AQ/99/TT when we 4b? That's really the question I think. If he ships and we call we're in good shape. If he folds we win $175 uncontested. Maybe he decided to 3b with 92o because he has no equity and auto-folds to a 4b with those type of hands.

Flatting and playing OOP vs a 5/10 reg that I assume is relatively good at poker seems like it's gonna put us in a lot of bad spots, no?

Yeah you're right not much difference, pretty thin either way.

Being a 5/10 player makes me think is range could be wider as well.

I don't know about this particular villain, but if I was the one to 3bet you preflop I am flatting almost my entire range vs your 4bet. I think most good regs would do the same. I think I'm rarely 5b and rarely folding (unless I have complete crap like 92o).

Again, I don't know what this villain is like, but I think most people are going to be flatting 99% of their hands vs a 4bet (unless they have a particular read, which from what I gather there's not much in this hand).

Agreed, interesting hand all options are sort of gross.

Thanks for posting.

going with the school of thought that we win more when our decisions are easier, can we just fold?
I do not agree that V is then printing money every time he 3b when we open because we wont always have JJ and it wont always be the same V. is this not just a rare situation where we can swallow the pride and get away from $25 while keeping our decisions east and stress level down. This isn't a 2/5 reg that will keep needling us in position against all our opens. we've never seen him and hell soon be gone anyway.

Honestly just asking questions here, maybe out of the box, maybe just naivety. Can we consider this a spot where we can rely on our "mental game" and avoid the tough decisions that might throw us off our game?

4bet/folding JJ here is not much different than 4bet/folding 22.

Would any of you 4bet/fold pocket 2's here?

4b sizing is too big

I would flat pre flop. It's live poker, there's more money to be made flatting than there is getting it in pre.

If you feel that uncomfortable playing pots with villain then you should leave the table

i dont' see how it would be worth it 4betting this......... you 4 bet he flats then you're stuck unless you get a good board...... if you 4bet and he 5bets you're folding.. if he's a perceived lag then his perceived range should be wide enough that you're beating him w the call, as thin as it is...... this seems like a spot where you shouldn't be sticking more money in until you know what to do.... and i'm not a fan of sticking money in to find out where hes at;i put him on range of TT+AQ+,
i guess main point here is, 4bet to like 270/f to 5bet
or flat and save money while seeing the flop potentially ahead?

4betting/f here seems like spew so i flat and save money to see the flop i'm potentially ahead in

wouldn't mind folding here too actually

reasoning is that he's an unknown and could be sitting on premiums. i don't assume anything until i get reads 4betting there wouldn't fold anything, it would just inflate the pot for no reason.. the little time he has AK AQ there, you do it for cheaper by flatting

End result:

I agree. I see his hand histories and think he is playing in a completely different game than I am. Hard to give advice w that much meta-game going on.

This is not correct.

If villian flats the 4 bet then obviously we would rather have JJ.

Also 4bet/fold is exploitive as most good villians generally assume 4 bets at this level are the nuts.

The fact he is shoving AK makes it obvious villian doesn't believe this is
the case so either villian is a bit spewy or WJ looks like the he could be 4 betting lighter. I don't know the history between villian and hero.

I think the 4 bet was too big.

Now we know he 5 bet shoves AK we can adjust by calling the 3 bet in future.

Unlucky runout but 4bet/folding would have been a bigger mistake after the 4 bet to $325 seeing the results.

I don't know many villians that 5 bet almost 200bb with AK though.

Agree you must have some sick meta game going for $2/$5

GRUNCH

I think these spots really depend on if we know how V plays AK. If we know V can 3b/5b Ak then we should 4b/call. If we don't know how villain plays AK then I think this becomes a fold or a call. In this exact spot I think we can flat pre since we entice the other two guys into the pot thus "creating" the value we need....... Knowing what V does with AK and Broadway cards is huge because if they aren't capable of 3b these type hands, their ranges are almost always KK AND AA thus giving us an easy fold. Until proven otherwise, I assume people will play like the herd and play face up.

+1. I can't sum it up much better than this. Flatting JJ here is by far the best play. Nice post, daniel.

to all advocating a 4 bet/fold, what size would you make a 4 bet with AA? Because given stack sizes, 4 betting to around 250 sure strikes me as a 'finding out where i am' raise. and makes me vomit.

I agree. To 4b JJ profitably it requires a decent amount of dead money/fold equity etc. The 3b to $100 indicates pretty strongly his $ is quite live and he isn't folding often enough. However I do think his range is probably wider making it a call, especially with the possibility of others calling.