As others have said, we make a big mistake by not shoving the turn. All his draws are calling and we're already pot committed
AP, I would call river. if we suspect this player is capable of exploiting us, we need to make sure we're not folding too much of our range. We won't really get to this spot with very many Aces, as I think most of our Ace high flush draws should be raising off the flop. We can't really afford to fold that much of our range when we're getting such a great price -- if we fold more than 30% of the time, we're giving him a great price to run a bluff on us. We can fold QJ and some of our QK, but not much else.

If you really think that Villain is 3betting too wide, I like the pf flat in position to keep his range wide. I think we can get away with having no 4bet range IP. Punish him for his overaggression by forcing him to play big pots OOP with the worst hand.

Shove turn advice is awful. This guy had T8o here, if he is 3betting this wide he is going to have so much air in his range. Shoving just let’s him fold all his low equity air OTT. It sucks the river was the worst card in the deck and we have to fold but that doesn’t mean shoving>calling.

Don’t be results oriented

Shoving turn >>> calling turn and folding river when the A or Q hits.

An A or Q will hit 15% of the time, and you're advocating just sacrificing our equity in a 1000 dollar pot when that happens. We lose 150 dollars in EV.

When we're pot committed and never folding to a river bet, it's never a mistake to shove turn ourselves. We can get Villain to sacrifice his equity in case he has a flush draw, which isn't the worst outcome in the world.

As played, I would fold the River while you get a great price what do you really
beat? His only bluffs are low spades and KJ which you heavily block... I guess he would check/AxXs

I would 4-bet pre- most players at 2-5 live are going to be pretty strong 3-betting the BB (actually really depends some players are just terrible) so you might as well get value from his stronger hands.

As played, with stack sizes, I would also shove the flop...it's a little thin but still plus EV assuming he calls AQ to the raise... flop call is fine as well but IMO you should be jamming the turn given stack sizes.

yeah not shoving the turn put us in a weird spot, but wouldn't QxJx and KxQx (non-spades) be better calls given they block top set, AQ and un-block spades

seems like V played the hand pretty bad IMO, he is betting turn into a super strong range and what is he going to do when he gets shoved on, on the turn...River I supposed he has to YOLO jam and hope you have QxJx, KxQx (though this is prob over folding), or KK (though he prob assumes you 4-bet this) with a spade....

Yeah and we lose out on all his air combos. We net $425 when the river blanks out and he shoves air. We are not pot committed by calling the turn, we still have 85BBs OTR. Do you know what pot committed means?

Also wtf@never folding rivers. That’s not how you play poker. Every street decision is independent of the last streets. Just because we call turn doesn’t mean we call all rivers.

Honestly, I don’t hate flatting the turn, but only if you’re doing it with the intention of calling any river card. Doodoo, you are contradicting yourself. You’re saying flat the turn to allow him to continue bluffing air, but then you’re saying fold river.
Flatting turn only makes sense at this SPR if you’re doing it with the intention of calling basically any river card. IMO flat turn, fold river is far worse advice than shove turn and it’s not even being results oriented at all.
I’m surprised V only had two outs here, but I think it’s also wrong to assume that V was shoving any river card. If he’s competent as Hero suggested he’s probably check/folding any river that isn’t a 10, Queen or Ace.

We're never folding on the river because KK is going to be in the top 70% of our range no matter what river card peels off, and Villain is described as bluff happy. Therefore, so as to remain unexploitable, we need to take into account MDF when constructing our river calling range. MDF says that we can only fold the bottom 400/1400~ 28% of our range.

Villain is described as a balanced online type of player. Given his play in this hand, this is clearly not the case. But assuming the description in OP is accurate he should only be barreling the turn with hands that have a great deal of equity -- he shouldn't be barreling with any air. Shoving turn and forcing him to relinquish that equity is a good play. He will also call with all his Ace high flush draws and 12 out combo draws, which is a great result for us. Simply put, shoving turn makes the hand easy to play against a talented opponent and forces him to a difficult decision.

Flatting turn is also okay as long as we're not planning to ever fold the river.

I am playing my range. KK is very high up in my range OTT but when an Ace comes OTR then an equity shift happens. Now I can have KJ/AQ and Ax combos and my KK is no longer high in my range.

In game we don’t know he has T8o. And to just blindly say “hey I think you’re bluffing OTT so I’m calling rivers” without any regard for how the card affects your range is not a sound poker strategy.

Villain got very lucky in this pot. We will stack him on most runouts, it’s okay to fold some rivers and play our range.

Your point is valid. The only thing is that I'd hate to call with QJ and have him flip over KQ for an ultra thin value bet. If he's a good player and is taking into account our dynamics and history, he could be going for such thin value on the river. KK is also great because it blocks both AK and KJ, which make up a large part of his value range. Also QJ blocks some of his J9 bluffs. Overall, it seems like KK is a bit better than KQ, which is in turn a bit better than QJ from a blocker standpoint

Strawman argument. That's not at all what is being said. Ais obviously a bad card for our range -- probably one of the worst cards. But KK is still in the top 70% of our hand range sorted by absolute strength. We have 15 combos of KQ and QJs, and a couple combos of busted combo draws if we're desperate to find something to fold.

Doodoo, you’re also not considering the fact that we double block A-K from V’s range.
If we lose here, it’s almost exclusively to A-Q, A-10 or QQ & 1010.
The main reason that this river is a call here though is because of the description of V.
I agree that this is a fold if we make it to the river against many LSNL opponents, but that is not how V was described and that was a large reason I think shove turn is best.
You’re assuming that we’re going to get V’s remaining stack (which is actually $150 less because we started with less than V), but I see it as we take a lot of risk with potentially zero added value.
V can just check/fold non-scare cards or unimproved and we give him a free card.

First of all ur not that deep, it's a 3! pot and u started with only 170bb

4! unless it's vs a nit/super nitty player u have info on, easy flop call AP, raise turn, easy fold OTR

Even if he has no sdv flush draws u still lose in the long run, i think ppl won't even bluff no sdv flush draws OTR here anyways so even vs that under half pot bet fold..

Also a lot of cringy ass posts in this sub forum like usual LOL

When someone is 3betting at a high frequency, our response is to 4bet more, not less.

Hand is fine post. Turn shove also fine considering his sizing and effective stacks.

Dude, KQs would be a better call down then KK here. DUCY? I don't think you understand what you are talking about.

KQ blocks 2 combos of QQ, 3 combos of AQ, 3 combos of AK, and 0 combos of KJs.
KK blocks 0 combos of QQ, 0 combos of AQ, 6 combos of AK, and 2 combos of KJs.

So they're exactly the same from a blocker perspective (assuming Villain double barrels all his AK in this spot).

Where KK benefits is that it doesn't chop in case Villain is going for thin value with KQ.

You are forgetting your K blocks a bunch of bluffs Villain can have while KQs unblocks them, so you should fold KK before KQs.

Don't forget villain could have AA here too.

both players are priced in for the river after the turn so shoving the turn should be great regardless of the cards in his hand, i would prefer calling if it wasn't so short, it's just best to get the hand in right there OOP. Remember that we should still have some semi bluff combos in the deck on the turn so its a great result if he folds a ten for our range.

It doesn't matter if he's bluffing, semi bluffing or value betting, the river absolutely has to be a call considering only AQ beats us, if his value combos and bluff combos are optimum we block the straights giving him only 4-6 combos that beat us. Only hand that has us on the river is AQ, if he's on an optimum strategy then there should be only 2 value combos in his range that win, so even tho he's repping exactly that hand it has to be a call, Im sure I shrug call river but it's good to look at this hand because math wins esp when players act irrationally

I actually thought that if Hero was beat it was more likely to be A-10 than A-Q.

When constructing a 4-bet range I would def include KK's or your going to be exploitable. If he realizes your 4bet range consists of only aces he's making the perfect adjustment by 3-betting you into oblivion. Against a competent player over a 100 bbs deep I would def 4-bet this pre also hands like QQ,AA and AK suited. Especially against someone who has 3-bet you multiple times in one session.

As played I would raise flop or turn in hopes of getting it in. He could have the AQ, QJ suited, JJ's, 10's, suited Ace combos etc. In 3 bet pots I would prefer to protect my equity and not let villain realize his. If he has aces it's a cooler and wotevs. If he has a suited ace and gins the river or makes you fold the best hand when the ace/scare card hits its disastrous for us.