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Old 06-23-2014, 01:55 PM   #1
wj94
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2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

Hero ($750): Late 20's reg, played with V once or twice before, no major history. In for $1k, lost a few small pots but nothing noteworthy. Been at the table an hour or so, probably have VPIP around 20/10 at this point.

V ($1800): Late 20's/early 30's, looks European, seems like competent LAG. Playing a lot of hands, standard raise from $20-30 regardless of position and has opened from EP several times in the hour he's been at the table. Him and his friend have 3b like 3 of my last 5 opens, so they are either running good or just aggro, probably the latter.

Hero is in CO, V is in BB. Hero dealt AK

Player in MP limps, hero raises to $25, folds to V who 3b to $70, limper folds. Hero 4b to $170. V thinks for probably a full minute, then slides in a stack of green which was around $700, effectively all-in. Standard to just call it off? About $580 for me to call.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:07 PM   #2
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

Think you should be finding a fold here unless V has seen you 4 betting light in the past. Your 4 bet should look pretty polarized to QQ+, AK....so for villain to 5 bet, I would expect him to be showing up with KK+ the majority of the time. At best you're a coin flip to JJ+ (with JJ/QQ being a stretch) or chopping against AKs.

Get position and wait for a better spot.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:09 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

I think so.

After you put in the $170, it's (580/(580+580+340)) = 39% needed. You're ahead near never, but tying and flipping a ton and blocking the hands that have you crushed. I think you have enough equity, it's just high variance.

Since he's obviously pulling a WJ and betting barely less than you have to make you shove and see your cards, did you just flat and call it off later to make him the last aggressor so you got to see his hand regardless of the board runout?
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:10 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

Villain could be expecting you to be 4betting light given he's 3betting frequently BUT I don't assume this without more information/more of a dynamic. Light 4bets are rare at these stakes, and light 5bet shoves even rarer. A LAG who 3bets often shouldn't be given credit for jamming light without more information.

Fold.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:10 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

What was the reason for your 4 bet Value or Bluff? Against a LAG I think a call is better.

I would think that a LAG is 5 bet a polarized range. If his value range is just KK+, then he has to be bluffing almost 50% of the time for this to be a call, since he has live cards when he's bluffing. If we widen his value range to QQ+ then he has to be bluffing around 25% to make this breakeven. I think it's a fold.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:13 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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I think so.

After you put in the $170, it's (580/(580+580+340)) = 39% needed. You're ahead near never, but tying and flipping a ton and blocking the hands that have you crushed. I think you have enough equity, it's just high variance.

Since he's obviously pulling a WJ and betting barely less than you have to make you shove and see your cards, did you just flat and call it off later to make him the last aggressor so you got to see his hand regardless of the board runout?
I don't think we're flipping very often. Don't understand why JJ or QQ would play like this ever.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:13 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Hero ($750): .........

Hero is in CO, V is in BB. Hero dealt AK

Player in MP limps, hero raises to $25, folds to V who 3b to $70, limper folds. Hero 4b to $170. V thinks for probably a full minute, then slides in a stack of green which was around $700, effectively all-in. Standard to just call it off? About $580 for me to call.

This looks to me like AA and on the other hand when you have AK and 2bet and get 3bet you should fold because what hands will 3bet? - Any pair is ahead of you and for sure no dude will 3bet with AQ. So you have a easy fold in all situations when get 3bet while holding AK yourself. Also when some dude 2bet and you 3bet it become easy to play if you get 4bet. So either way you should know what to do.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:38 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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I don't think we're flipping very often. Don't understand why JJ or QQ would play like this ever.
No one's going to say it's unlikely JJ/QQ 3-bets. So once JJ/QQ gets 4-bet, what do you do? The raise is another $100, so set-mining isn't an option this shallow. I guess you can flat, hope you're up against AK, and when the flop misses AK, c/shove to get a few more dollars. That has a lot of contingencies attached to it. So what other options are there? Fold or shove. And the only hand you can expect to be up against with JJ/QQ and be happy about when you shove is AK, while it's only 1 hand, there are 16 combos of it, more than the number of AA/KK combos. And this guy's European, and it's 2/5 in LV not 1/2 in Maine, so I don't know why you expect JJ/QQ to 3-bet/fold almost the whole time and 3-bet/shove never.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:00 PM   #9
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I agree JJ and QQ def possible given read

Meh probably a fold but against European lag I take high variance and I probably get it in here. If he's really as laggy as you describe.

In other words, I hate 4 bet folding here against euro lags. If you don't want to take high variance, just call the $70 imo.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:16 PM   #10
javale mc g
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

reasons for the 4bet?
4bet folding AK vs a lag is prob very bad (not saying 4bet is correct in the first place vs most "lags" though...)
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:01 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

Against this player there should already be a plan in place when facing the 3bet. Flatting the 3bet and 4bet/calling both seem viable while 4bet/folding and folding to the 3bet both seem bad. So as played I would call it off.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:08 PM   #12
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Pretty much always Flatting this IP... Also not sure if this v knows sizings but if so his sizing is small... More indicative of wanting action...
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:40 PM   #13
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4 bet folding is not a good plan.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:35 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

This is going to be a near-zero EV spot. I think V's range includes AK 100% of the time, but whether it's a call depends on whether his range also includes AQs/JJ+. If it does, it's a call. With AKs or QQ it's a call regardless (QQ has 41% vs KK+/AK, AKs has 40%).
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:51 PM   #15
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Grunch.

1.58:1, so you need 38% equity against his range. If we give him JJ+, AK then we have 40%. Against KK+, AKs we drop to 25.6%. If it's a full minute tank to Hollywood AA I would find that a little annoying (not as hero, but as anyone at the table; I get taking 20 seconds but a minute means you're actually slowing me down to less hands/hour). I think we can call and expect to be in a race or AK vs AK often enough.

Especially when you have dynamics going I think you have to be prepared to call it off if you're going to 4bet in the first place. Between call 3b, 3b/call 5b and 3b/fold to 5b it seems like 3b/f is the worst option against a LAG who we have history against.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post

Since he's obviously pulling a WJ and betting barely less than you have to make you shove and see your cards, did you just flat and call it off later to make him the last aggressor so you got to see his hand regardless of the board runout?
Haha, I didn't even notice this part. Good idea to get info/protect our own info. It would be a pretty funny game of chicken if it went chk/chk for three streets.

Last edited by Axel Foley; 06-23-2014 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:20 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

this is a pretty easy call off once you 4b

as others have said 4b/f here is bad
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:30 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

Some mind boggling posts ITT.

If you 4 bet it isn't to fold. It's to get it in. That's not such a bad thing if he's a lag tard. If he's competent then you're looking at a more narrow range. Unless it's KK+ only, then you have to get it in.

My question is why not just flat the 3 bet and let him be ridiculous forthe entire hand? I'd float most any flop as well.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:35 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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Originally Posted by Axel Foley View Post
Grunch.

1.58:1, so you need 38% equity against his range. If we give him JJ+, AK then we have 40%. Against KK+, AKs we drop to 25.6%. If it's a full minute tank to Hollywood AA I would find that a little annoying (not as hero, but as anyone at the table; I get taking 20 seconds but a minute means you're actually slowing me down to less hands/hour). I think we can call and expect to be in a race or AK vs AK often enough.

Especially when you have dynamics going I think you have to be prepared to call it off if you're going to 4bet in the first place. Between call 3b, 3b/call 5b and 3b/fold to 5b it seems like 3b/f is the worst option against a LAG who we have history against.
I like calling the 3 bet pre and think 4 betting against aggro Euro V is a huge mistake....

It all depends the range given really and I think frustration of getting 3 bet a high percentage puts a lot of people on tilt and will cause them to call off here....this is forgetting the fact that V has not seen a 4 bet from hero and hero has not seen a 5 bet all in from V...this is the key component to finding V's range.

I believe it's KK+, AKs....if this is your range for V fold.
If your range is JJ+, AKo, AKs...then call.

Have a feeling Hero is about to be in the game for $1500 though....
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:41 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
Some mind boggling posts ITT.

If you 4 bet it isn't to fold. It's to get it in. That's not such a bad thing if he's a lag tard. If he's competent then you're looking at a more narrow range. Unless it's KK+ only, then you have to get it in.

My question is why not just flat the 3 bet and let him be ridiculous forthe entire hand? I'd float most any flop as well.

+350

I don't like the 4 bet with AK and particularly not if we're thinking about folding.

flat 3 bet pre, flat flop,
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:21 PM   #21
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Crazy how nitty some of you are

If you 4bet you have to call

I like 4betting tho. Its the dynamic you want to create between laggy regs that you have to play against.

Standing up to them a couple times in spots that might be slightly negative ev at the time turn out to be positive ev in the long run

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Old 06-24-2014, 04:58 AM   #22
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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Old 06-24-2014, 02:37 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

I would call this particular villain since he shows up with AK here a huge chunk of time. We give up too much not to race.

If he has a pair I would assume QQ and I race there too so yea. This villain is one of the handful of live players that I would play the same as online.
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:45 PM   #24
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

The table dynamics matter also. If there are big stacked weak players on your right, taking the race to end up with $1500 behind them instead of $500 behind them can be great for the rest of the night. Some guys are just intimidated by huge stacks behind them, a lot actually make mistakes deep that they don't make when they're shallow. It's a future EV variable.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:04 PM   #25
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Re: 2/5NL: AK gets 5bet preflop by LAG

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Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
The table dynamics matter also. If there are big stacked weak players on your right, taking the race to end up with $1500 behind them instead of $500 behind them can be great for the rest of the night. Some guys are just intimidated by huge stacks behind them, a lot actually make mistakes deep that they don't make when they're shallow. It's a future EV variable.
+1, hadn't thought of this.
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