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2/5nl,ak in 4 bet pot

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07-26-2013 , 08:36 PM

maplestar

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 541

2/5nl 8-handed.An unknown villian just sits down and seems a bit loose aggressive preflop/post.hero sees him call down light and bluff raise huge on river with air.He also 3bet once in position but doesnt show cards. hero has $500 and villian covers.
MP(TAG) raises to $20,villian on BT 3bet to $60,hero 4bet to $160 in sb with A

and villian flat calls.
flop($340): 7

hero ? Given that he doesnt 5bet shove, his range looks like ak,aq and TT,JJ,QQ.Of course we cant exclude kk+ in his 4bet flat range.
shove or check one street and see what happens next?

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07-26-2013 , 09:09 PM

quesuerte

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,333

Betting here accomplishes little (maybe folds out chops?.) People who flat 4 bets for 1/3 of effective stacks are not folding 99-QQ here. So I'd check/call to target the part of his range that is spazz spew.

Hand too good to fold, too bad too value bet. check away.

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07-26-2013 , 09:39 PM

maplestar

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 541

Quote:

Originally Posted by quesuerte

The guy is aggressive and i'm not sure if we can call his flop shove profitably when checked to. If we shove first into the pot(one psb), we only need him to fold 50% to make it profitable plus we have about 30% equity(backdoor flush draw) when called.Also,99-TT is probably not in his preflop 3bet range.

Last edited by maplestar; 07-26-2013 at 09:46 PM.

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07-26-2013 , 09:51 PM

Connissuer

grinder

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 676

you have it right maple shove flop or check fold, or if you feel he'll bluff with air check jam?

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07-26-2013 , 10:08 PM

quesuerte

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplestar

What do you think is in his three bet range and what does betting accomplsih against that range?

Where does 30% come from?

As I say, folding out chops and denying AQ 3 outs on the turn are both bonuses but that is about it.

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07-27-2013 , 01:47 AM

patchohare

The Situation

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,966

an agro on the button, I'd guess his 3 bet range is super wide. I'd also think he's betting if checked to most of the time. These guys like to bet a lot more than call. Shoving seems better than check/call or check fold to me. He has to think the only hand he beats (maybe) is AK that 4 bets. There's more FE here then you think imo.

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07-27-2013 , 04:30 AM

quesuerte

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchohare

an agro on the button, I'd guess his 3 bet range is super wide. I'd also think he's betting if checked to most of the time. These guys like to bet a lot more than call. Shoving seems better than check/call or check fold to me. He has to think the only hand he beats (maybe) is AK that 4 bets. There's more FE here then you think imo.

I really don't get this. You think his range for betting is wider than calling but you'd rather be than check? So that means you think he is folding better? When people stick in 160 pre you think they fold a pair on this flop? I don't.

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07-27-2013 , 09:24 PM

maplestar

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 541

Quote:

Originally Posted by quesuerte

we still have about 30% equity(5% backdoor flush draw) vs his range(tt-qq) even if he calls our shove. Shoving here with only one PSB is definitely +ev given that he'd fold his chops.However,if we check,we are hard pressed to call his shove with ace high.We can c/c if we have some big pairs.

Last edited by maplestar; 07-27-2013 at 09:31 PM.

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07-27-2013 , 09:30 PM

jambre

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,181

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplestar

why are you discounting KK/AA from his calling range lol?

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07-27-2013 , 09:51 PM

#10

maplestar

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 541

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambre

why are you discounting KK/AA from his calling range lol?

He 3bet on BT in 8-handed table and only flats my 4bet.We have some blockers.A bad aggressive donkey player would definitely 5bet shove with kk-aa in these low stake games in my experience.His range is pretty much AK,AQ,KQs,TT-QQ.

Last edited by maplestar; 07-27-2013 at 09:57 PM.

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07-27-2013 , 09:57 PM

#11

jambre

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,181

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplestar

He 3bet on BT in 8-handed table and only flats my 4bet.We have some blockers.A bad aggressive donkey player would definitely 5bet shove with kk-aa in these low stake games.He 4bet falt range is pretty much AK,AQ,TT-QQ.

"an unknown villain"

Discounting AA-KK is moronic. You have blockers but there are still 6 combos of AA/KK out there. Plenty of unknown villains would flat a raise to 160 and play 340 behind in position to guarentee you stack off.

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07-27-2013 , 10:01 PM

#12

maplestar

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 541

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambre

how many aggressive donks do u see flat 4bet with kk-aa in low stake games?Do u think fish is as sophisticated as you?The have kk-aa and are excited to shove all-in,man.

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07-27-2013 , 10:12 PM

#13

jambre

adept

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,181

Quote:

Originally Posted by maplestar

how many aggressive donks do u see flat 4bet with kk-aa in low stake games?Do u think fish is as sophisticated as you?The have kk-aa and are excited to shove all-in,man.

You said villain is unknown...? You seem to have played enough hands with him to label him the generic terms "donk + fish" but have no reads on how he plays AA/KK preflop. It's much safer to include AA/KK in his range than to discount it. You can be pretty sure he's not folding these but you can't say he's always shoving them?

c/f the flop because V calls down light.

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07-27-2013 , 10:39 PM

#14

Oddhalo

The Situation

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,004

Grunch

Unfortunately this board sucks for your hand as any over pair will likely stack off to a shove if they are thinking..

Still maybe a shove folds out 99-JJ but im not saying it is necessarily correct to shove here.. But prob necessary if u hope to win the hand

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07-27-2013 , 10:47 PM

#15

progress

adept

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,108

don't 4-bet AK here oop. c/f flop.

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07-28-2013 , 10:58 AM

#16

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

4 bet was too small in general however it prolly induced him to peel fairly lightly,.

Now----I would bet $50 as weakly as I could / call his shove. Shove turn if he calls only.

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07-29-2013 , 03:29 PM

#17

OSUTexan

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,210

Quote:

Originally Posted by AintNoLimit

4 bet was too small in general however it prolly induced him to peel fairly lightly,.

Now----I would bet $50 as weakly as I could / call his shove. Shove turn if he calls only.

This is really bad...so you want to induce a loose/aggressive villain to shove all in or raise???? Call his shove??? You have 6 outs and almost dead to AA or KK. Are you on here to get players to play worse or are your responses genuinely what you think?? Not trying to be rude if they're legitimate but I've seen quite a few of ur posts and just don't believe your posts are really how you would play...if they are....wow

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07-29-2013 , 06:42 PM

#18

agnostia

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,282

I dont think I ever 4 bet an unknown with AKs pre because of how strong of a range a 3bet suggests in live low stakes poker. I think that with out a read that suggests otherwise, he has JJ, QQ, KK, AA or AK.

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08-30-2013 , 06:42 AM

#19

pokerbrah

banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 591

ppl flat a 4bet all the time with AA and KK, not really a move only seen at high stakes

I stacked off one time with AK because I had blockers and lost to AA, I told the dealer I had blockers and to count the deck, deck was legit so it can happen from time to time

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08-30-2013 , 12:23 PM

#20

AintNoLimit

Coach live/online NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 6,399

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchohare

This is by far the answer. chk shove or chk call his shove,

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08-30-2013 , 03:50 PM

#21

ATsai

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,409

Just shove it in on the flop. You should have a lot of FE here against 88-TT, and even JJ may fold once in a while.

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08-30-2013 , 04:15 PM

#22

Frontline1980

enthusiast

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 83

4betting AK oop puts you in a bind sometimes. Not to say that you shouldn't do it, just saying these are the type of situations you can expect from time to time when you get called and blank the flop. The read you have on him is limited, so this is what you call a "tough spot". I don't think anyone is going to agree in the exact decision to make post flop , the only thing to take note of here is accepting that spots like this will be a common occurrence with this style of play, you can take it on the chin and c/f, or fight to the death and shove of c/shove>>>>>>>>c/call. learn to accept it and move on the the next hand.

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08-30-2013 , 05:02 PM

#23

DustyA

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 96

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambre

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