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Old 03-23-2014, 04:33 PM   #1
PoppaTMan
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2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Hero (950) - Late 20s/early 30s looking white dude. Just sat down about an orbit ago, having raised PF once, cbet then gave up. The majority of the table (including all villains) has witnessed me squeeze PF quite liberally over weak PFRs in previous sessions.

V1 (covers) - Reg who typically limps his entire range in EP on PF aggro tables, including all big pairs, AK, etc. Gives me basically zero credit when I squeeze PF. Has a healthy aversion to being OOP in big pots with marginal hands.

V2 (800) - Nitty semi-reg with PF sizing tells. Typically plays straightforward in multiway pots, doesn't do much slowplaying that I've seen. Best guess for his 3x open range is something like 77-TT,ATo-AJo,ATs-AJs,KTs-KQs,KJo-KQo. Usually folds the entirety of his 3x range to my 3bets when it looks to be going HU.

V3 (1200) - Splashy rec player. PF standards are very loose. Capable of making moves when he perceives there is FE, but definitely isn't going to automatically spew off anytime he flops a draw.


2/5NL - 8handed

V1 limps UTG+1, V2 raises to 15 in LJ, V3 calls on BTN, Hero raises to 75 in SB with AA, BB folds, V1 calls, V2 calls, V3 calls.

Flop ($300) : T 5 3
Hero bets 175, V1 tank folds, V2 calls, V3 raises to 625, Hero...


V2's call didn't take much time, V3 pretty much started grabbing raising chips once V2 called.

Thoughts on all actions are welcome. Mostly curious who folds, who jams, and if anyone prefers just calling and sticking the last couple hundred in on a non-heart turn.
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:48 PM   #2
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Def not calling. Options are either fold or gii. Calling gives vil2 too good of a price. This really depends on what you're thinking vil3's range is. If he thinks you're fos and is likely to do this with KT or fd then I think we have to gii. I feel like he has a set a ton here though and we don't even have the Ah for back up if we happen to be wrong.
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:51 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

I've taken advice from players who are way better than me... by not 3b oop deep vs what will probably be multi way action vs sticky players.

as played i'm folding and feeling good about it. you bet, tight guy flats, and fish raises small ish. extreme strength-- 3b pot, multi way, small raise size. fold
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:02 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Based on your description of V3 I would get it all in. He probably has TX, TT, 33, 55, or something like KQ or A2

There's just too many combos your ahead of and your getting a great pot odds (700 to win 1525)
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:40 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
I've taken advice from players who are way better than me... by not 3b oop deep vs what will probably be multi way action vs sticky players.
There is definitely some value to considering this advice when super deep, but I don't consider 200bb to be approaching that threshold. With a stickier PFR, I'm usually 3betting bigger. But I stuck with standard sizing due to reads in OP. If V1 doesn't coldcall, I'm probably just taking it down PF or going HU with V3.
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:51 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

I'd fold flop. V3 is showing a lot of strength. V2 is likely on a draw, but theres also a small chance he flopped a set.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:15 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Since the only bluffs V3 has in this spot are draws and there's no guarantee he would bluff those here and we still have V2 to consider it looks like a fold.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:02 AM   #8
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

I've been in this spot very often before, and given the descriptions of V2 and V3 it's a fist-pump GII. Here's why:

V2's range is largely JT-AT, and 2 overs + an FD. Given his propensity to not slowplay, we can largely discount sets. Even more-so if he doesn't open with low pairs (22-66). Additionally, given that you have been seen to cbet/give-up often, he could be peeling here with 66-99 as well. As such, we have V2's range crushed.

Now, onto V3. He started grabbing chips as soon as V2 called. When this move is done immediately after a bet+call in a multi-way pot, this is very often a TP-type hand which 'put V2 on a draw'. For reasons unknown to me, rec. players seem to forget completely about other players in the hand as soon as they think one of their opponents might be on a draw; instead, they spas out, committing themselves with TP because they don't want the flush to get there.

Yes, V3 can also have a set here, but there are FAR more combos of TP and overpairs (JJ,QQ) in his range.

Here's our equities against these ranges:


Equity Win Tie
UTG 62.17% 62.07% 0.10% AdAs
UTG+1 17.23% 16.87% 0.36% TT-66, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, AhKh, AhQh, KhQh, AhJh, KhJh, QhJh, ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo
UTG+2 20.60% 20.28% 0.32% QQ-TT, 55, 22, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, T7s+, Ts6s, Ts5s, Ts4s, Ts3s, Ts2s, ATo, KTo, QTo, JTo, T7o+, Td6s, Th6s, Tc6s, Td5s, Th5s, Tc5s, Td4s, Th4s, Tc4s, Td3s, Th3s, Tc3s, Td2s, Th2s, Tc2s
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Old 03-24-2014, 04:59 PM   #9
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

OP, you have no idea if V3 over values over pairs/ top pair? thats the first thing I look for.. if he does then get it in.

there's no perceived fe, he clearly has a hand he wants to gi.

sorry you probably folded, V2 tank called QQ and hhwg

but now you have a valuable note.
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Old 03-24-2014, 05:30 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Played enough with V3 to feel pretty confident he isn't raising for value/protection with one pair here. He almost certainly doesn't have any overpairs in his range after flatting a 3x raise OTB.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:08 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Given Villain descriptions I think the low-end of either Vs range is AhTh, this makes it a crying fold for me.

If you think the caller in the middle OTF could have JJ or QQ here then there's definitely an argument for jamming.

Never calling.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:10 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

just shove. v3 has a lot of cool looking draws here, and if he thinks you ever consider folding a pair here is gonna raise them a lot
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:20 AM   #13
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

2pair+ and strong flush draws. Plug in the equity vs that range I guesse?
-you can't really call here out of position as your hand is faceup as overpair to the board and so when you call flop he will use position to realize his equity on his strong semibluffs.
-upon further thought as well just fold in this spot.
-you said he only semibluffs with perceived fold equity. And with the preflop/flop action and V2 in there from early position the perceived fold equity is next to none.

Last edited by ozmosis313; 03-25-2014 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:20 AM   #14
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

snap fold hes gonna roll over a set everytime he knows ur strong, flush draw is out there why its better for him to get it in now before a scare card hits the board but I do think v2 has a flush draw which also limits v3 from having a flush draw
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:47 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenzY View Post
Based on your description of V3 I would get it all in. He probably has TX, TT, 33, 55, or something like KQ or A2

There's just too many combos your ahead of and your getting a great pot odds (700 to win 1525)
Yeah, this is pretty much where my head was at as well.

A loose player just has so many TXs combos in their range when call/call PF from BTN. Had the board instead been T53, then the number of pair+fd in his range is likely small enough that I could pretty easily find a fold here.

As far as perceived FE goes, all Vs have played with me enough to know that I'm not the type to auto-stack off with an overpair in 3bet pots. As mentioned in OP, I also have a reputation for 3betting a bit wildly, so my cbetting here isn't even necessarily indicative of having a big overpair.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:43 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Shove
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:05 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

There are too many factors working against you here to stack off without a strong read imo

Despite V3 being splashy and capable of making moves I doubt he'll show up with a naked flush draw here that often. Also the presence of a nitty villain flatting, with a player left to act behind, in a bloated 3B pot is a concern.
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:23 AM   #18
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Its a shove, but not a fist pump.

You've got to be good about 35% of the time, and currently you only have about 36% equity versus V's range of strong Draws (combo, and Ahxh where X is a broadway card, ThXh where x is A through 9) sets, and weird two pair hands.

If V does not overvalue top pair and doesn't shovel it in with draws (V2's call gives him odds to call with weaker draws) then what else can he have?
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:03 AM   #19
daniel9861
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Barely a fold because of V2's presence. Maybe if you can get a live read off him then you could gii. This is also 100% for certain V3 raises with a combo draw which is probably not the case.

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.21 Professional)
Holdem, Generic syntax
Board - Ts5h3h
PLAYER_1 AdAs
PLAYER_2 TT, 55, 33, Tx5x, Tx3x, 5x3x, AhQh-Ah2h, KhTh, QhTh, JhTh, Th9h, Th8h, Th7h, Th6h, Th4h, Th2h, 6h7h, 4h7h, 2h6h, 6h4h, 4h2h
PLAYER_3 TT, AT, KxTx, QxTx, JxTx, Ah9h, AhJh, KhQh, KhJh, QhJh
633906 trials (exhaustive)


All-in Equity

 Equity %Wins Hi %Ties Hi %Wins Hi CountTies Hi Count 
AdAs29.9290%29.6896%0.4897%1882043104 
TT, 55, 33, Tx5x, Tx...47.4647%47.2792%0.3818%2997062420 
TT, AT, KxTx, QxTx, ...22.6063%22.3472%0.5293%1416603355 
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:17 AM   #20
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

More V info would be needed. I want to shove here based off your image and the respect (or lack thereof) that Vs have for your 3 bets. Sounds to me like you think they think you are always FOS and if that is the case AA is the nuts here. But V3s line is so strong here I just can't imagine too many scenarios where we are good here. At the same time he is repping so thin. basically 33 53 and 55. Since we think he will 3! pre a 3x open with TT on the button. UGGHHH I want to shove!!

Tough spot. But based on your FOS image and V3 being described as a little wild I'm going with stuff it.

v3 could also see this as a great squeeze opportunity since V2 didn't raise it feels like he should be capped at 1 pair, and you are always FOS and folding so let's squeeze. I would definitely be leveling myself here into thinking this

Tough for me to find a fold here with your image and villain dynamics.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:00 AM   #21
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V3 has Jacks... Ship it!
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:10 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5NL - 200b deep w/ AA in 3bet MW pot

Thanks for the input.

Results

Spoiler:
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:32 PM   #23
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With Jacks right?
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