Sometimes variance needs to be embraced and this is one if those spots. You can't check back this flop b/c your scared. Yes some of the time you get it in bad here and lose 3 buyins. Given his image, stacking off should be fine against his range.

I mean he says "if he didn't know what to do versus a chr" but it is better to just bet/fold here like a nit than to check back

Everyone in this thread who is advocating a bet/3-bet on the flop is suicidal.

Just call the flop CR and re-evaluate turn. Even bad loose spewy players love to put the PFR on AK, so I really doubt that Villain is bluffing anything worse than a combo draw. We probably are only a 55% favorite against combo draws, and we are drawing slim to dead against K8s and 88/44. It is reasonable that Villain could have limp-called 88 and 44 from EP, ya know.

Getting it in on a relatively safe 5o turn is reasonable because we have much better equity against draws on the turn, but I can also understand a cautious turn fold.

ANL's recommendation to check back the Kx8d4d flop is bad, but he is right to be cautious about stacking off TPTK here.

I think the strongest line (where we look at the top of our range) is flatting the chr and shipping the turn

This...every word of it!!

Villain is a fish. He is not hand-reading us at a sophisticated level. He is playing his own cards.

No need to get fancy with a 3-bet on the flop against someone who is a basic thinker.

Grunch!!!

I personally like flaring the flop check raise then shipping over the top on the turn on a safe card. I don't think that there are many people who are going to ship the river with busted draws once we call then turn bet and the pot gets this big.

Shipping on the turn does a few things. Most important we see 1 more card by flatting the flop for relatively cheap for what the pot is about to explode to. Second this type of player is not going to back down on the turn and is always firing on all turns. So we accomplish two things now, first and for most we cut Vills equity in half with his combo draws and also commit him when he has these draws...he's never folding after pumping so much into this pot.

He is a bad loose spewy aggressive opponent who plays 5T, am I the only person who read the OP?

Anyway we are just going to have to agree to disagree, interested to see results

I appreciate all the input guys, really got me thinking about all lines thats for sure. I am still not totally sure what is optimal though.

results: I tanked for a bit and shoved over his turn bet. He immediately cringed and folded 99 face up and thats where my problem with the hand came in. Wasnt sure if i should have just flatted to keep all his bluffs in but then again who the hell is suicidal enough to run a total airball bluff like this in a 2/5 game....anyway, hopefully the results dont kill the discussion.

Obviously not an air ball bluff, DUCY?

honestly man this hand really threw me for a loop. When this guy cringed and insta mucked i was really shocked. I mean obv totally fine with the result but still really surprised we didnt see a river.

tbh you should really really not like the result

from my perspective: versus this player type, with his likely range, he put his head in the noose on the flop and all you had to do was cinch it and hand him some rope by clicking it back and watch him hang himself. Instead you did the 2nd worst possible line (besides folding the flop) which is shipping the turn.

Very true. And if i were going with the hand, i would tank and call turn ensuring his river bluff. Jamming just shuts all bluffs down.

Ok so lets say i flat turn planning to snap off all river bets and he checks a blank. Are you shipping for value or checking back?

yea this was my original intent of my post. I wasnt sure if i should just flat to keep his bluffs in.

Also, I would like to hear your thoughts on what to do on river if a blank falls and villain checks. are you betting for value or checking back?

if he checks the river I overbet ship, like I don't think we can overbet ship but if we could I would.

I mean the river has to be a very good card to be considered a "blank" here (maybe non diamond 4,5,3,2,A)

and both the 2/3/5 I don't really consider to be a blank (obv an A/K isn't a "blank" but as in it really shouldn't change his range at all)

If we just call turn, half of our stack is already in there. When we raise for stacks on turn, the raise is only 1/2 PSB, so we can still called by worse when we shove turn. For example, almost all his draws will call off.

Moreover, there are some scary rivers that will either kill our action or scare the hell out of us.

I think people are getting results-oriented when they say that call turn is definitely optimal versus shoving turn.

Yeah in principle I agree with you that if his range is all combo draws then we should be much more inclined to shove the turn, however the wider/more air filled his range is OTT the more correct it becomes to call the turn and stack off on the river (even if a diamond hits). It is gross and you are going to feel sick when he binks some random hand and ships it in but given the description I think this guy can 3barrel bluff.

Sigh. Sometimes, I get described as a bad loose spewy Asian who plays bigger. And I would always have 76dd, 65dd, or a set here.

If you guys think "bad loose spewy Asian" always = this idiot who butchered his 99, then you would be significantly underestimating a lot of Asian Villains.

I definitely bluff catch much lighter against Asians, but I also don't go assuming that the bad ones are all super-******ed. Maybe, it's just that all the super-******s in LA went broke already or got better...

Cliffs: Asians are often bluff happy, but Asians are also usually capable of some kind of thinking. Even the spewtard fish among us Asians know the basics and are not complete ******s.

racist itt

My 2 cents

1) Its very rare that I stack off for 150BB or more with one pair..I would need to have a confident read on the villain, backed by many many sessions of play together.

2) 3-5 hour session against v isn't nearly enough to make a decision to go with this hand beyond flop

3) Getting past the point above, assuming read is spot on (i.e. villain is spewy, aggro etc) he is going to have a ton more semibluffs in his range, than airballs or mediocre value hands turned into bluffs. Considering he won't be folding any (or much) of his semi-bluffing range to a raise, IF we decided to go with the hand beyond the flop, imo NOT raising this flop is a mistake

My overall take on this hand is fold>>>raise>>>>>>>>>>>>>call

Unnecessary. If he's asian you make assumptions and insta stack off

In all seriousness you don't need this much time. If I see someone do something bad/spewy deep then I'm going to make assumptions about what he's capable of.

Would have been nice to have specific hand examples other than the given "bad lag spewy" in op.

Have really enjoyed the conversation. My regular game plays deep very often and I usually err on the side of protecting my stack if I don't have a strong hand. Thread has given me some things to think about at the very least.