Yep.

Looking at the hand as a 90 bb deep spot because of the straddle is deceiving. I understand the straddle changes things but to refer to the spot as 90 bb deep and think that ranges will reflect that seems like a mistake to me.

Villain ranges may not change (good for us!). However our play can respond to the fundamental changes.

And being 90 deep reduces decisions and makes it harder to make a deep mistake--jamming a KK overpair on most flops is basically always correct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Proof please.

Always correct means exactly what?

Because "4betting without shoving preflop with KK is basically always correct," too.

cant prove but it feels like common sense due to stack sizes and action, i could be wrong

If its any consolation id take your raise to 500, and results orientedly, he probably snaps that too

dont tank ship, this is ridiculous. Just ship with normal timing. Who on earth has to tank when deciding to put in 200BB preflop? "Oh woe is me, the agony, what ever shall I do with my semi-decent hand other than put all my earnings into the pot". Cmon, this is transparent even to a fish.

Shove to win the minimum and lose the maximum

Flat to win the maximum or lose the maximum, and sometimes lose the minimum if a A flops

People don't have a 4bet calling range in LLSNL (except for a select few and you would have noted if either V was one) and their 5bet + range is usually only KK+

How can calling and shoving have the same EV, unless the assumption is that V2 is never folding and V1 is never calling or folding?

FFS don't ship.

Most of the time flatting bc we are ip and 4bets fold out everything but KK+ in live poker 200bbs deep (I see straddle, I don't care). If you don't flat make it $375-$400 and not a dollar more.

As for being face up, making it $400 and actually flipping your cards over is probably better than shipping.

As for results, add AKs to your 4b range. AA/KK/AKs

What range are they really putting you on that is any different when you flat vs 4 bet here

While both are strong it is very important to let villains spazz/spew when they want to spazz/spew. When we flat he is cbetting flop with 100% frequency.

There is just something to be said about letting villains maintain initiative when you are ip with the nuts in this game.

Sort of different hand but this is a recent one for me. I open AA utg for $15, villain is tight MAWG with lots of history makes it $50 w/AK, tilting guy shoves his last $120, I tank flat ($600 eff), he snap ships.

I thought we were in a cooler spot but as you can see there is just alot of merit in letting villain have rope when SPR is low anyway and the money is going in anyway. Basically the one thing I could have done to help villain out was raise.

A vacuum hand example with different circumstances, just wanted to highlight letting initiative have full rope.

In this particular hand from OP, villain doesnt think "wow he flatted here his range is super strong", he thinks "drool i raised pre drool i cbet" and with his sizing, the money is going in / committed otf.

Again, don't really care about $400 or flat. But wanting to ship here is just cray.

So you think this guy was folding if any further raises ensued preflop? A guy who snap ships it when you flat but folds if you raise?

Non subjective answer:

The frequency at which he folds to a raise from me is certainly non zero, whereas the frequency he folds to the $120 is zero, and the frequency at which his 3b range is 5b felting here once I flat is probably >50%

Subjective answer:

Yes. 100%. I have significant history with this guy. While the entire table, the dealer, the cocktail waitress all know that my open UTG/flat here is ridic strong, the initiative still lies with villain. I'm not sure what to call it but there is a very real psychological thing about villains being "relieved" from a hand.

Until you provide that relief, they spew.

I guess a different mantra is "villains don't stop betting until you give them a reason to"

I'm not talking about slowplaying every nut hand you get, I'm just talking about maximizing the rope for villains when you have the effective nuts in a low SPR scenario.

$200 is a big bet in most 2/5 games in my experience.

Unless there is unusual dynamic or that H has a donkey image, I can't see H flatting with anything but trap hands.

If you're a solid 5/10 player, what do you put H on?

this is such a strange debate to me,
either our opponent is bad at poker or he is good at poker
If he is bad (live low stakes kinda bad) then I really don't think we need to worry about balancing our ranges and we absolutely can shove KK for value all day.
If villain is really good then we do have to worry about balance and should have some lighter shoves in our range TO BALANCE OUT THE KK+ WE JAM


We could disagree on sizing and I can be OK with a smaller raise here. I just think we will don't typically want to stick ourselves to a pot and make it hard to have a raise fold range when shoving is close enough to OK. But I could be convinced otherwise on this and think it comes down to how we actually want to construct our aggro range overall in this spot.

But here's the thing; If we are EVER GOING TO RAISE ANYTHING in this spot we should be raising KK, no? If we absolutely insist on having a slow play here then we should use AA over KK but I'm not personally doing that because the only thing it really does it stop us from having a capped flatting range and, well, i doubt that's gonna be a big problem.

So why on Earth do we not want a raising range here?
Or, even more strange to me, Why would we want to have a raising range that does not contain KK? (THAT would be a suspect suggestion IMO)

If we have a specific read that tells us that we can expect our opponent to play very bad on a lot of flops and so bad that we should slow play kings pre-flop, well, i haven't heard that read come up in this thread.

Obviously flat calling KK here (or anywhere really) is an exploitive adjustment so what tendencies or propensities are we trying to exploit?

Don't see how this would be relevant given the context. Do you tell the guy that "hey, I shove with ATs sometime as well"?

How could KK be part of raise/fold range in this spot?

Main reason to slowplay is that we believe implied odds is high. There should be a range, not specific hand(s).

FWIW, these questions are telling me that you are lacking the foundation to properly evaluate these scenarios.

Ranges are created to max value (and it could be to minimize loss as in case of junk range). We evaluate top and bottom ends of range and see if certain hand(s) are +EV to be in a particular range or if they below in another range.

Creating ranges may seem like a very simple concept, but it can actually be quite complicated when number of variables are considered.

If you shove KK here and villain snap folds QQ or AK face up you lemme know about that. I'd like to see that.

A live low stakes NLH game where players 3 bet-fold ANYTHING EVER is rare. Guys, how often do these droolers 3bet? With what range? About the loosest players I play against in $2-$5 in Toledo/Cleveland/Detroit are 3 betting (almost regardless of positions) JJ+,AK and most of them will be more like QQ+,AK, and some QQ+.

I have like NEVER seen a player in a live low stakes game fold AK or QQ pre-flop. But if we think this guy will then just bluff him to oblivion (no, seriously, don't do that because that would be completely crazy). Because they are not folding AK or QQ but may easily get away from these hands if you try to trap in this kinda obv spot and the A either comes or doesn't.

SHIP IT!!!