Hero has Effective stack of about $900 has a solid winning image.

-Villain 1 seems very sticky preflop.
-Villain 1 has less than hero, maybe around $450

-Villain 2 is noted as a solid 5/10 live reg
-Villain 2 has hero covered, maybe $1600+ (lots of bills back)

PRE-FLOP

This is a button straddle game to $10.

One limper in EP Hero is in MP has K K raises to $50, HJ Villain 1 calls $50, Villain 2 in BB raises to $200, Limper folds, Hero decides to 4-bet to????????

This seems like a good spot to not raise. If hero flats hero has $700 behind in a $600 pot if V1 comes along. V2's $200 also gives V1 enough space to shove with hero being able to reshove behind, so that is fine also.

If I did decide to raise because I thought I could get heads up with V1 then $500 to force V1 all in now looks good. Against some V1's just shoving now is more likely to work and I could go for that option.

Given info about v1 I probably flat, otherwise 420.

Flat in an effort not to turn your cards face up. If you shove you'll be forcing him to make the correct play, which is fold unless he has AA. Would your villain call a shove with AK or QQ? If so shove!

you only have 900, you don't need to 4!. It is all going in on the flop, barring an ace

4bet to $500.

~$315 in existing pot. Silly to just flat.

Not giving anyone free flop with that amount of dead money already in pot.

Grunch: Any size commits you here, I Hollywood a bit and shove, looks weaker to villain

I think I click it back here 450, if he thinks you're raising light and squeezing you don't want him to fold his 10s/JJ. If you just call there will be a lot of action killers against the hands that you're dominating, and alarm bells will be going off in his head that you're flatting with a hand like you have.
Check/fold any A high flop to a shove
Check/shove K high flop
Jam anything else

I strongly disagree with raising to $400-$500 because it makes your hand very face up.

I would choose one of the following 2 options:
Option 1: Tank shove $900 ---> This makes your hand look like AK or JJ-QQ, potentially even a bluff that doesn't believe his 3bet
Option 2: Tank flat $200 ---> This looks like some AK/AQ/AJ/KQ hand or a mid-pocket pair like 88-QQ. This gives him the chance to try to bully you out of the pot postflop, as well as allowing him to think that his TT on a 632r flop is probably the best hand.

I prefer option 2, since you're in position and you can invite V1 along too. You'll come to the flop with $600 in the pot and $700 behind, which makes a pretty easy flop shove whenever you flop an overpair/set and a fold on all Axx flops.

If your open raise was $30 and the 3bet was $100, then I'd typically 4bet this to $230, but given that his 3bet sizing is $200 and you only have $900 behind, any 4bet is essentially a shove anyway, so that changes things a lot.

What's wrong with face up?

If you want to do something deceptive, first ask yourself why.

KK specifically is a very clear re-raise and likely a shove against a player who actually has a squeeze-gii range wider than KK+, particularly for only 90bb in an obvious resqueeze spot.

So now I will tell you guys what I actually did, I kinda spazzed a bit I think but I dont really think the sizing matters too too after +$500 much does it?

Some may argue his line made the minimum and he lost maximum.

Do you even have a 3bet calling range? Is V1 calling HU for $150 more?

I agree with this logic.

I can't see this being anything but a shove.

If we are worried that we will fold out all of villain's AK and QQ then start bluffing in these spots but I honestly would not suggest that.

I think i am VERY face up when it comes to 4 bet shoving in $2-$5 live games and that's EXACTLY BECAUSE live fish don't 3 bet and fold often enough.

If you think villain will correctly continue with only AA then you can just polarize your range here and toss in some combos of Axs for the blocker

W/o some type of 3! dynamic wth villain this is an easy flat to me. Plus its ep v BB so your range is already stronger to begin with. Call and see if the reg will make a mistake. 4! here deep basically makes everything you beat fold. If you are going to 4! i believe you should be shoving though. I don't have much experience with a straddle in deep 5$ games but in the same way it makes people go nuts pre it could have the same effect post here. Flat>shove>smaller 4!.

shoving is no good, you want to give yourself a cheaper price to plausibly bluff these spots

I didnt realize there was a HJ limper before. I think I am still flatting here, although 4! makes a bit more sense than it did before.. AMANPLAN, I dont think there are many people, let alone good regs who have a squeeze gii range w/o a dynamic that is anything less than KK+ ep v blinds. This squeeze out the blinds is almost always value. Expecting a good reg in the blinds to 5! gii here with anything but KK+ is crazy.

All of those great 4bet bluff spots in llsnl we want to balance... lawl

I agree with 6bet. I'm either shoving or flatting. Whether I shove or flat depends on V1

Shoving to let V fold or flatting to let V see a free flop?

The villain paid $200 to see the flop. It wasn't free for him.

It is about the ranges and how KK stacks up against them. If V1 is sticky pf, he can have a pretty wide range. I'm happy to let anyone call me with a worse hand than KK where at best they are going to have a 1/3 PSB remaining. A solid 5/10 player slumming at 2/5 is often epeening around. His range is fairly weak as well. All a 4bet says that these stakes says is "I have a big hand."

The only real question as to which is a better solution is what will V2 on a flop if called. If he's only going to bet with a big hand, then a 4 bet is better. However, I don't think a solid 5/10 regular wants to go around telling his buddies that he c/f a Q62r flop because he missed. There's more money to be made by letting him show you who's boss by trying to push you off your hand.

I am surprised you wrote that, because the decision point under discussion is after his $200 raise. So if we do not raise, his cost at this decision point is effectively $0.

No disagreement here. If V2 is AI after the $200 raise, I don't think anyone would argue a re-raise.

Clearly if argument is to flat, we are looking for implied value.

Implied value is somewhere between "V will not put in any $$$ < KK on the flop" and "V will never fold."

Agreed, if V is leaning toward the end that V will not put in much $$$ < KK.

The assumption would have to be that not only V doesn't think much of H, V doesn't think much of V raising to $50 and then calling $150 raise.

In most of the game dynamics in my past experience, unless V is a spew monkey and really doesn't think much of $$$, a solid 5/10 regular is not going to go nuts on a Q62 flop.

I'm shipping or flatting here. If it's a ship, it needs to be a snap ship or a super slow tank, then ship (like he should think you're slow rolling him).
Flatting for all the reasons given ITT.

Note, I have bluff shipped a similar spot. Not a huge part of my range, but there are times for it.

You're also only 90bb to start the hand, so you're protected from deep mistakes post.


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What's so bad about re-raising? Do you think it looks stronger than shoving?

calls vs raise vs shove are so close in EV its almost irrelevant.