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Old 09-17-2018, 04:48 PM   #1
pocketzeroes
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2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Hero (covers - about 2k) is most likely seen as a good, aggressive player, but one who maybe opens too wide (I almost always open more than anybody else at the table), and is perhaps a bit spewy sometimes.

Villain (~$1300) is a late 20s white guy, clean cut, wearing hoody, but not really a grinderish type. I've played with him before, but nothing stands out (which to me, generally implies somebody who's fairly tight and doesn't bluff much).

Preflop
Hero opens to $20 with KcQc in MP, villain calls immediately to hero's left, BB calls.

Flop ($60): Kd8d5c
Hero bets $35. Villain calls. BB folds.
Note: I'm c-betting this flop with this sizing with most of my hands.

Turn ($130): Kd8d5c 2c
Hero checks top pair/good kicker+BDFD planning on a check-raise (note: In my experience, I'll get called by hands like KT and KJ on a turn x/r here *a lot* -- because I do have a pretty bluffy image in general). I might just check/call if villain's sizing is really big (I don't think players like this generally bomb it with a flush draw). Also, I assume that this villain will usually raise AK, so I think it's pretty unlikely I'm behind unless V flopped a set.

Villain bets $35. Sizing is weird and almost seems to want a raise, but whatever, I'm still going to raise. I decide to make it $125 total. In retrospect, I wanted this to be bigger, but I was thrown off by V's sizing. V calls.

Thoughts on the turn x/r?


River ($380): Kd8d5c 2c Jh
Both flush draws miss. I really hate that J, though, as KJ is such a big part of villain's range that I wanted value from on a river bet. Still, I'm hoping V can hero a bet with even weaker pairs than a K given my line. Hero bets $200. V doesn't think long, grabs a stack of greens, and makes it $500 total (leaving himself about $600 behind), $300 more to hero. Hero?

Last edited by pocketzeroes; 09-17-2018 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:57 PM   #2
samo
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Given opponent image and line, specifically the turn bet/call, I’d C/C river. Hard to imagine he’s doing this with a hand like KT. Additionally, the raise sizing on river appears to beg for a call.

AP, I’d fold.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:15 PM   #3
pocketzeroes
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
Given opponent image and line, specifically the turn bet/call, Id C/C river. Hard to imagine hes doing this with a hand like KT. Additionally, the raise sizing on river appears to beg for a call.

AP, Id fold.
What range do you give villain after the turn bet/call?
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:43 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

You played it fine. Assuming people take note of your turn ch/r, and you can protect your weaker ranges in the future with checking turn, then I like the ch/r otherwise I continue to lead turn with your range to get value from weaker KX that might check back or to prevent a free card to a stingy PP like 99-JJ
River is a clear bet/f. If Im checking its to evaluate not to check call


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Old 09-17-2018, 06:27 PM   #5
pocketzeroes
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by endodocdc View Post
You played it fine. Assuming people take note of your turn ch/r, and you can protect your weaker ranges in the future with checking turn, then I like the ch/r otherwise I continue to lead turn with your range to get value from weaker KX that might check back or to prevent a free card to a stingy PP like 99-JJ
River is a clear bet/f. If I’m checking it’s to evaluate not to check call


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Ok, I did fold pretty fast... However, this hand has been on my mind because I’m not sure this type of villain does this with KJ for value (after turn x/r and river bet), and I think flopped sets are very unlikely too given turn action on a board with two flush draws. So I feel like his value range is mostly exactly JJ here, but maybe KJ too. Furthermore, his raise happened so fast and I can’t help but think that it would have to take a bit to register what to do with KJ or JJ... Finally, I think that I have a tendency to make people think “he’s FOS”, and this could be one of those spots given the flop bet followed by turn x/r with V’s sizing. I’ve gotten into many a hand with the tightest most fit-or-fold type player, who suddenly and weirdly show up bluffing off a stack to me... I needed to be ahead here about 30% of the time to make the call. I think I’m content with my fold, but it’s been bugging me mostly because I feel like his value range is so narrow, while his range going to the river seems really wide (lots of hands like 99, TT, 89, etc that I don’t think he just automatically folds to my turn x/r).
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:27 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
What range do you give villain after the turn bet/call?
Could include FDdd like 97/76/A5 along with 88/55/K8s.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:43 PM   #7
ImAllInNow
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

your check-raise idea on the turn is really bad, imo. All it does is guarantee that you pay the absolute maximum when behind (or have to make a tough fold with a lot of outs).

Check/calling turn would be a great idea.

As played on the turn, I'd check/evaluate river.

As played on river, I'd just fold. You're leveling yourself if you think he's trying to bluff you here. You way overrepped your hand and are now thinking of hero-calling? If you want to induce bluffs, then don't over-rep your hand.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:32 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Hero is getting 3.5 to 1 to call the river raise.

I can't believe he'll be good enough times to make this a smart call.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:48 AM   #9
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

I think turn xr is fine

Folding to the river raise seems fine mostly because you don't see bluffs here that often.. if villain is creative enough to bluff here this is probably a call
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:11 AM   #10
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
I think turn xr is fine

Folding to the river raise seems fine mostly because you don't see bluffs here that often.. if villain is creative enough to bluff here this is probably a call
Agreed that these types of raises on the river are rarely bluffs, but they do happen occasionally - and in my experience they happen mostly as a kind of rebluff when they think theyre being bluffed.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:18 AM   #11
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Think what you are trying to accomplish when you check/raise the turn.

I think this hand is much better as a bet/bet/bet. You are basically turning your hand into bluff. I would rather use a no showdown fd with this line and 2p+.

Jh is also pretty much a blank.

AP I will call river vs decent villain. Too much missed on that river. Vs a passive I will snapfold.

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Last edited by mrdestiny; 09-18-2018 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:19 AM   #12
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

check raise turn line is interesting and i don't hate it but i think i'm looking to check the river and decide as played.

we aren't ecstatic trying to peel off 3 larger than average streets of value vs so few worse hands. Bet/fold seems ok too tho since we might have a busted nut flush draw in our range but doesn't seem like V is ever folding so i can't see any bluffs you can get away with here to balance your value range

prefer to bet the turn ourselves tho

so i think the hand is mostly fine but lean to check the river, tho i don't hate the bet/fold line since we prolly have to call off the 200 anyway. checking the turn isn't too big of a risk so I think i like it even tho I usually don't take this line as it's hard to bluff like this

Last edited by KT_Purple; 09-18-2018 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:01 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
your check-raise idea on the turn is really bad, imo. All it does is guarantee that you pay the absolute maximum when behind (or have to make a tough fold with a lot of outs).

Check/calling turn would be a great idea.

As played on the turn, I'd check/evaluate river.

As played on river, I'd just fold. You're leveling yourself if you think he's trying to bluff you here. You way overrepped your hand and are now thinking of hero-calling? If you want to induce bluffs, then don't over-rep your hand.
There are some people that I play against who I would pretty much never call a turn x/r with one pair. They just have a stronger hand 100% of the time... However, good and bad players alike have called me down in spots like this many a time with hands like top pair, bad kicker, or even a second pair/underpair. Truth is - I probably bluff in spots like this too much, but it gives me enough action so that a hand like top-pair-second-kicker is the virtual nuts on this board, absent any reads telling me villain is already stronger.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:31 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

I think ill dive into this street by street

Pre: Agree completely.

Flop: Think the sizing is good, however a case can be made for sizing down a bit since there aren't any real draws to chase outside of the diamond draw. I think this is a tad player dependent because bad v's may be calling with 57 or 69, and in this instance the only real threat Id say is the BB. furthermore, you're oop so playing a big pot isn't a comfortable situation, at least for me.

Turn: This is where the hand shifts, and this kind of ties back to the flop. You're holding kqc which drastically decreases the possible combos the v can continue with on the turn, also, you are almost playing this like a bluff. Checking oop gives v an opportunity to peel off and realize his equity, and I like a bet here far more often. you're getting paid here by weaker kings and stubborn diamond draws, and to be honest id say more like stubborn diamonds than a K because you're blocking those as well. More often than not v is calling down with those.

River: He min raises lol..... kind of blows but to be completely honest I think this is just a guy trying to bluff where he shouldn't , sure bad v's aren't bluffing a river like this often but given the sizing and your blocker I'm calling.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:55 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Grunch

Villains line on turn really is odd. If he's got a draw why not just take the free card? If he's got a hand why not bet it to a proper size?

Too many draws possible for V to be comfortable betting a decent hand here like this. I think on balance he is semibluffing a draw and thought his tiny bet would fold your air for a cheap price, unexpectedly getting raised triggers his call with draws and maybe 1-pairs but I'd have thought if he were massive there he'd 3bet the turn a lot of the time given all the draws. So I put him on a draw rather than 2-pair+ but I guess K9s/KTs/KJs/(KJo?) makes some sense.

River you bet 200 and quickly get pretty much minraised. Again, weird and I'm a bit confused.

Does he have any draws that rivered 2-pair? J8cc?

Hero has Kc so V can't have KJcc (which would explain the weird turn bet too).

What about AJdd? Could V spaz out and think he has a value raise with 2nd pair top kicker? Could he turn JXcc JXdd into a bluff blocking top two? All too ridiculous or weird to give serious thought to IMO.

JJ? Should raise pre, don't know why it flats turn X/R.

Apart from the obvious KJ I'm coming up empty on villains river raising range here. Unless he elected to slow play a big hand effectively three times (once flop, twice turn) I don't see how he has anything else.

Can he bluff raise river with one of the busted draws (clubs and diamonds and 76). Hero blocks quite a lot of clubs draws and not sure how V gets to turn with clubs anyways so really it's mostly busted diamonds and 76.

Doesn't seem a good spot to bluff raise river with diamonds since he's blocking a load of your turn X/r semibluff and, more to the point it looks like you're pretty strong. Minraise just doesn't get any folds Vs hero's line here so why would he do it to bluff?

I hate to put someone on one hand but I put him on KJ or J8cc here. Can I fold for such a small amount more though, probably not. Partly out of suicidal curiosity I call just wanting to see WTF he's taken this weird line with if it isn't one of these 2-pairs. Will I be satisfied when I see KJ? Not really. So why am I calling???

Last edited by Ragequit99; 09-18-2018 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 09-18-2018, 04:09 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Damn. Just saw you folded - good fold IMO but I really wanted to know what V had! Ha ha, I'm such a fish

So the turn X/R: it seems mad from my perspective but I usually play pretty tight TAG with only short periods of LAG when short handed so I don't generate the kind of image OP is obviously getting.

OP - I can quite believe that with your image you're getting called by weaker KX on turn. I can also quite believe frustrated villains can do some weird spaz-rebluffs against you. Partly why I was so keen to see showdown to be honest

So yeah, personally I go to X/C the turn or just keep barreling depending on my reads, my image and the random stuff going on in my head. But with your image I think turn X/R is ok.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:02 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Grunch

Villains line on turn really is odd. If he's got a draw why not just take the free card? If he's got a hand why not bet it to a proper size?
Thanks for recognizing why im so bothered by this hand... Right now, I think most likely villain had one of the 3 combos of JJ. Yes, not 3betting this against me pre is a leak, but not surprising at all, especially in MP where villain might be concerned about others flatting the 3bet after him, and having to play a flop against me with likely overcards... If he has JJ, flop call seems normal. Turn bet is strange, but Id see it kind of as a pre-emptive river block bet (I do sometimes bomb rivers in spots like this after a turn check through). And river raise is obvious. Furthermore, I think hed spend much less time thinking about whether he wants to raise JJ as he would if he had KJ (part of what bothers me about this hand is the speed with which he raised). If he did have KJ (or J8), I think hed have to pause at least a few seconds to decide if he thinks he might be raising into a set - its different than if I had taken a b/b/b line, in which case KJ might have instantly responded with a raise thinking Im likely to have QK or AK.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:49 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Yeah I think KJ definitely has an actual decision between flatting and raising here and it isn't easy.

Maybe it is a call? His line is so weird once you take the timing of the river bet into account you almost get a null range. It's basically 3 combos of JJ and some spaz bluffs. Accounting for the times he decides to 3bet pre with JJ or ditch it on the turn he's got next to no value combos left. Any spaz at all and you're getting the odds...
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:20 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

bet/fold flop
bet/fold turn
bet/fold river

thread.

your check raise on turn is the worst option you could of taken.
As played fold river.

And KJ shouldn't call a turn check raise - but since you played it so strange he might.

Also size up on flop to $40 - $45. Tons of draws.

Turn is an EZ $100-$110 bet.

River $250 or check call since most draws missed and you want to invite a bluff.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:23 PM   #20
ImAllInNow
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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bet/fold turn
bet/folding the turn is so gross. This is why it's supposed to be a check. Although, of course, I agree that check/raising is terrible.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:33 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

I'm not sure why everyone thinks xr is terrible despite the tiny sizing from villain

If villain made a normal bet than call is more attractive but once villain does that hero is justified in punishing weaker hands and the various draws out there, turn xr is actually still a bit small but it is still better than calling
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:56 PM   #22
ImAllInNow
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
If villain made a normal bet than call is more attractive but once villain does that hero is justified in punishing weaker hands and the various draws out there, turn xr is actually still a bit small but it is still better than calling
Who are we punishing, though, by check/raising? If they wanted a free card for their draw they could have just checked.

I do admit the small bet is odd, but we super own ourselves if they bet/3-bet us here on the turn.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:23 AM   #23
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Don't like turn as played. Seems like a better hand/board to have in 3 barrel range vs having it to padden your turn check range. Also betting turn will seem weaker than c/r.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:13 AM   #24
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Re: 2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Turn should be a x/c, let him spaz rivers and getting 3b sucks, we also dont need equity protection.

Otr ap should be a check, dont see a point in betting when all the draws brick and J is a bad card for your range, he has a lot of KJ and you dont. Ap you block clubs and youre basically at bottom of your value range so i fold, though im not surprised if he turns up with air
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:24 AM   #25
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2/5 Weird spot facing a river raise

Turn x/r seems like an overplay. Are you really x/r for value? KJ and KT are going to bet/fold turn literally always. And if he 3bets you, youll be put in a really tough spot and have to fold.

Why so fancy? Just bet turn yourself? Or maybe check call vs tough players?
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