Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2018, 05:35 PM   #26
zqzeek
journeyman
 
zqzeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bennington, VT
Posts: 217
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

FWIW (not much), I'm with others who are fine with folding KQo preflop here. Especially given the two very different players behind us, it's going to be hard to find value: when we apply pressure to MP, V is often calling; conversely, when we think we're somehow trapping V (despite being out of position), we have MP fit-or-fold behind us.

I don't have a clear opinion on whether the flop c/r is good for exactly this reason. We fold out the initial raiser (yay!) and get called behind by someone who is sticky (sigh).

I think 3! preflop has some merit vs. this combination of players, but I don't think KQo is in my range for that move here.

As for the rest of the hand, I see the merits of b/f the turn and the counter-arg that we don't want to be raised off the flush-draw in K. But it matters that this isn't even the second nuts on this board... I'm pretty OK b/f here.

I do call the $90 on the turn; and I agree with others that folding river here is fine.

-EF
zqzeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 06:01 PM   #27
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,642
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold View Post
KQo doesn't play that well multiway. (Amana) Why do you advocate a flat with this hand out of the BB.?
Enough equity here to call $10 pre, but it's more about wanting to play pots against these passive guys who don't play their ranges aggressively/make mistakes post. That leaves a lot of room to make money, particularly for OP who is familiar with their brand of poker.
The real ***** about playing against real players when OOP is that you just can't ever seem to get to showdown on your terms which is why you might consider raise/fold pre>call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
He didn't show, and I'm still waiting to hear why the flop c/r is so bad...

I can't tell from amanaplan if he's saying the flop c/r is bad because his continuing range is strong? Still confused by many of the comments on flop play ITT.
You technically can find some beneficial components to raising flop w this combo, but it's not better than calling all things considered.
When you ck-raise, you might grab a small street of value from his draws (loose passives still find bets when otb and checked to with stuff like that), but your action still has a narrowing effect that cuts out some hands you might have gotten a street from later while still putting a lot of pressure on one of your worst ck-raising hands with two streets left to play.
MP is also still in the hand and he might make a bad overcall with little equity sometimes. Folding out equity is fine, but not when they have so little.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 06:39 PM   #28
Jarretman
veteran
 
Jarretman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 2,777
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Flop x/r is bad because when we bet or raise we do it for 2 reasons. One reason is to increase the size of the pot in case we win, and the other reason is to deny our opponent(s) equity. When you raise this spot, especially to your huge sizing of $125 you don't accomplish either goal.

Raising KsQx here otf does not do a great job of denying our opponents equity because villain's "bluffing" hands are really just high equity draws which might end up just jamming on you anyways and then you'll have to fold which sucks dick. The only hands you get him to fold with your raise don't really have that much equity vs us, like 98/97dd/AsQx/AsJx (with this exact combo having the Ks means even his flush draws have less equity). Or you get him to fold hands like 77/88/worse Kx which again we don't really care about denying equity because we have those hands absolutely crushed. Which leads me to my next point...

Raising KsQx here otf doesn't do a good job of increasing the size of the pot in case we win because first of all if you are jammed on you have to fold, and if villain calls your raise he most likely has a hand that has you absolutely destroyed like AxKx, AA or a slowplayed set/2pair. The only hands we beat that are continuing are high equity draws - which isn't a great spot to be in!

TL;DR Raising flop is bad with this combo (especially to this sizing... raising the flop to a small sizing is significantly less bad) because you isolate yourself to parts of villain's range that has you crushed, fold out the hands that you have crushed that you're likely to get value from on a later street, like K9s, KT, KJ, and you don't effectively deny equity as villain is likely to continue with his high equity draws by either jamming or calling.
Jarretman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 09:22 PM   #29
mdelore
old hand
 
mdelore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,315
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Thanks Amanaplan and Jarretman for your explanations. I've been thinking a lot about this hand and running ranges and equities in Flopzilla's Equilab.

Since I am not sure what the right play is I'll just start with some facts I gathered from this software.

I have his continuing range at KTo-AKo, 87o, AKs, 43s, 66, and 55, and spades{AX, QJ-Q8, JT-J7, T9-T7, 87, 43}
Against this I have 58% equity. If I remove KTs, KTo, K9s I have 54% equity.

I think his real range is some combos of 66, 55 removed since I don't think he slowplays these every tme, and also folds KT about half the time. It doesn't change things too much though, giving me 58% equity.

Overall I can see where everyone is coming from, it puts us in weird situations later and some posters think he isn't continuing with Kx. I think he is calling flop with KJ and KT, and possibly on the turn too putting us on a draw. There's definitely some big value from those hands and charging draws to get there on turn and river. It does get awkward and gross when we get raised at any point in the hand, and if V turns Kx into a bluff when a draw comes in. I'm still undecided on this hand but I appreciate the input from everyone who wrote out their reasoning.
mdelore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 10:51 PM   #30
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,225
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold View Post
Minatorr,

I'll play devil's advocate against calling this hand out of the Blinds. This is 2/5 and we are fairly deep. (I would be topped off to be 200 bigs with the other players, but w/e)

First regarding the 3x raise. I know I am in the minority, but I raise 3x with my entire range when I am first in the pot. This can be anything from AA to 45s. Unless OP has a read that he varies his bet size due to his card strength, then I wouldn't read much into that.

Secondly, I want to play hands especially the deeper we get that can make the nutz. The best chance KQo has a chance of doing this is by making the nut straight. And a lot of the time if we get an AJx flop, we are chasing a gut shot because "if we hit we can stack this bastard." Bad thinking and bad play. Most of the time, we get a 1 pair hand that is not near the nuts and OOP is likely to face a lot of aggression that we don't want.

Suited and I am all for it when we can add that equity into the hand. IF I was to play this out of the BB against a 3x open, I would 3! and take the intiative.Makes a donk on the flop much more believable should we want to take that route post flop etc....

Long winded way of saying I drop this hand in the blinds facing any amount of raise and don't think twice about it. I'd rather play SCs here than this hand.

Edit: Not to mention when we flop a K or a Q that likely hits the openers range as well a lot of the time.
150bb deep we should def have more of a reason to call vs one extremely weak player otb and the weak player from MP. We are getting an insane price to defend.

I didnt say 3x raise size indicates weakness. Even if he’s opening like 88+, QJs+, KQo+, A8s+, AJo+ (which is pretty dang tight and he may be opening a little looser), we have an insanely crystal clear call esp with the fish otb (he’s also giving us a better price/better pot odds). But i will say a lot of fish/regs will raise lower with weaker hands, so although he may be the one guy who does 3x every hand, on average population tendency will have an extra x% weaker hands here simply because he opened 3x.

If flop comes AJx we shouldnt be chasing the gutshot. Simple as that. The PFR’s cbetting range will be very nutted and we cant continue except on a miracle 10. I dont know where you play, but live players dont dbl barrel with airballs let alone even triple off with air. A huge disadvantage of being OOP is not being able to realize equity and/or folding the best hand too often bc IP players can put a lot of pressure on our capped ranges with dbl and triple barrels. Live players just wont do that at any reasonable freq.

I would not 3bet here. The OR is a little tight, we are bloating the pot oop with K high vs two players who prob wont fold (OR is a little tight, btn is gambley fish), we arent suited. Plus if we 3b here we are wayyyy overbluffing. That implies we are 3bing 16 combos of KQo, and we are also doing 16 AQo and a bunch of other random hands as well like KJo, etc. KQo plays perfectly as a flat here.

I’d rather have KQo here than like 64s or 54s. Now if you give me 109s, QJs, 98s, im picking those. This is a really good spot. We need to get into the pot with these weak players. Flop play is quite bad though putting it mildly, so i guess that severely reduces our EV if we cant navigate post

In a lot of the threads, i am probably the top 2-3 people who are adovcating and emphasizing a fold pre (that’s probably my most common advice in threads here), esp with how postflop is butchered the OP shouldnt just be playing the hand in the first place. But folding here imo is just pretty insane vs two weak players where we should definitely be showing a profit here with a defend

Last edited by Minatorr; 07-19-2018 at 11:01 PM.
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 10:54 PM   #31
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,225
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPrince View Post
+1

Minatorr, do you ever flat preflop here from the sb, or do you prefer a raise or fold strategy from that position with hands like KQ/AJo, etc?
KQs is okay to flat exploitatively live since the BB is hardly ever squeezing without a real hand than say vs online.

KQo/AJo im strictly 3b or fold, they play very terribly 4-way to a flop and have a lot of RIO vs SC/PP, etc. but vs a tight opener im just mucking. KQs we dont really mind if the BB comes along, we can cooler a lot of flushes
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 04:54 AM   #32
CowboyCold
veteran
 
CowboyCold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sweetwater, TX
Posts: 2,439
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
150bb deep we should def have more of a reason to call vs one extremely weak player otb and the weak player from MP. We are getting an insane price to defend.

....


.....

I would not 3bet here. The OR is a little tight, we are bloating the pot oop with K high vs two players who prob wont fold (OR is a little tight, btn is gambley fish), we arent suited. Plus if we 3b here we are wayyyy overbluffing. That implies we are 3bing 16 combos of KQo, and we are also doing 16 AQo and a bunch of other random hands as well like KJo, etc. KQo plays perfectly as a flat here.

Iíd rather have KQo here than like 64s or 54s. Now if you give me 109s, QJs, 98s, im picking those. This is a really good spot. We need to get into the pot with these weak players. Flop play is quite bad though putting it mildly, so i guess that severely reduces our EV if we cant navigate post

In a lot of the threads, i am probably the top 2-3 people who are adovcating and emphasizing a fold pre (thatís probably my most common advice in threads here), esp with how postflop is butchered the OP shouldnt just be playing the hand in the first place. But folding here imo is just pretty insane vs two weak players where we should definitely be showing a profit here with a defend
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
KQs is okay to flat exploitatively live since the BB is hardly ever squeezing without a real hand than say vs online.

KQo/AJo im strictly 3b or fold, they play very terribly 4-way to a flop and have a lot of RIO vs SC/PP, etc. but vs a tight opener im just mucking. KQs we dont really mind if the BB comes along, we can cooler a lot of flushes
I guess I am a bit confused? You are telling me KQo plays well as a defend out of the BB but in the SB it is 3! or fold? I really don't see much difference.
CowboyCold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 09:54 AM   #33
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,225
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyCold View Post
I guess I am a bit confused? You are telling me KQo plays well as a defend out of the BB but in the SB it is 3! or fold? I really don't see much difference.
There is a pretty big difference, more prominent in aggro games with good regs. Our range from the SB is going to be capped pre when we flat vs the opener (do we really ever flat JJ+, AKo+ or even AQs), and a good BB reg here can squeeze liberally (6-10% depending on how aggro he is). But in reg games, we are getting squeezed a non zero % freq and lose all of our EV (say 3%, JJ+, AKo+). Plus you arent getting as good of a price in the SB vs the BB

The bigger issue is that a lot of times the BB is going to overcall a lot bc lol pot odds and people dont fold live, and we are going 4-way with an unsuited broadway hand. When this happens, you are now OOP to 3 people instead of 2, and have even more RIO with 0 suitednesz. 3-betting the SB helps mitigate all this positional disadvantage the SB inherently has. Also 3-betting KQo is quite nice in some spots bc IP players call too wide and we will be heading to a flop where SPR is low and it’s perfectly std to stack off tpgk in spr of 2-4

Though when i say KQo here in sb is 3b or fold it’s mostly a fold. Almsot always. It’s okay to 3b at a 50-100% freq vs an aggro opener otb, but really here im just mucking. There’s a pretty decent EV difference holding KQo here in SB vs BB
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 12:55 PM   #34
CowboyCold
veteran
 
CowboyCold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sweetwater, TX
Posts: 2,439
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

^^^ Point taken. Thanks for your thoughts. I know the following COTM is a little bit dated, but I think it still applies when playing hands like KQo. The COTM is about KJo, but close enough.

A few quotes.....

Think also about what happens if you raise. If everyone folds, great. If you get calls, it isn't going to be with AK. The ranges is going to be pocket pairs QQ and below and a bunch of Ax. If you hit a K or even the J, you're going to be ahead much of the time. You have narrowed the villain's range to the point it becomes easy to play. If raised, you know your hand is no good and can easily pitch it to the muck. To paraphrase Patton, "The goal of poker isn't to make tough decisions, it is to make the other poor bastard make tough decisions."

Trouble hands are profitable. As a group, they are in the top 10% of hands I win money with (on-line data). That is not done by calling with them. I raise them 98% of the time when I play them (note to self, I lose money consistently when I call with them). I play them over 50% of the time when dealt to me. Therefore, it is a waste to just simply fold them. However, treat them with respect and raise. If you feel you can't raise them, then fold them. Just don't call with them.

Link to the COTM here.

I often look at the hands I play out of the blinds as UTG type hands.... And ask myself "If I limp and get raised am I going to fold?" If the answer is yes, then fold. If the answer is no, then raise.

Out of the blinds, I will call a raise with small to medium PPs, but everything else is pretty much a raise or fold. There is another quote that has also stuck in my brain that I read on here somewhere that most LLSNL players could increase their win rate by simply folding the SB without looking. And in a raised pot fold the BB without looking. A very simplified way of playing obv, but still valid points for not calling out of the blinds "because I'm getting a good price."
CowboyCold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2018, 01:49 PM   #35
Jarretman
veteran
 
Jarretman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 2,777
Re: [2/5] weird betting vs my flop c/r

^ Why are you guys even discussing this?

Exploitatively, it's LLSNL so you can have wider calling ranges pre because people don't 3bet you at anywhere close to the "expected" frequency and you often have weaker players left to act behind you that you want in the pot. Personally I always play the SB as a raise/fold vs CO or BTN - unless there is a very weak player in the BB but whatever. KQo is gonna be a +EV call or a +EV 3bet vs a CO/BTN open unless the sizing is huge.

Theoretically, just a run a ****ing sim.
Jarretman is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive