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Old 03-18-2019, 02:50 PM   #1
c0rnBr34d
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2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

2/5 1k max, 3-4 AM degen hours.

V - Is young-ish sLAG who just sat around 2:30-3 AM and bought in for max 1k. Opens 40-50 in normal pots, larger for straddles. Has three bet jammed 700 into $30 open and one or two calls. Has not folded to a 3 bet after PFR, is barreling with high frequency but does find some folds when Vs come back over the top. Early in his session Hero doubled through by calling $50 pre with AQo, calling $75 on Q high flop. Jamming over $185 turn bet for $390 total. V insta-called and insta mucked when Hero showed. Also showed down 24o in a raised pot where flop came 345, he led flop large and got called by PFR, A on the turn, he jams about 400 effective, AQ calls and loses.

Hero is MAG and should be viewed as tight / passive / sticky per earlier HH.

OTTH:
About 90 mins or so into Vs session, V ($950 effective) opens to $50 from EP, Hero (covers) raises to $150 from MP with AQ. Folds back to V who calls. Most likely capped due to previous history of 4 bets (AJ-, TT-, a host of other nonsense that sLAGs will defend with against narrow defined ranges from tight players).

Flop ($300): Q J J
V checks, Hero bets $225. I know I'll get some heat on sizing 3/4 but I feel like V is over calling all his Qx, KT, T9, and maybe 99-TT. We are cooked vs Jx, but his range is still wider than it should be here so I didn't see a need to worry about Jx too much yet OTF. Also due to his 4 bets V almost never has AA-KK here.

The fun part is that V may or may not decide that Jx isn't in Hero's 3 bet range from MP and decide to x/r AI. One thing is for sure, V x/r'd all in. Previously V was probably about 25% good when it got to showdown due to his aggression and sizing weeding out all but the strongest hands. This time it's not the standard b/b/b line though. Is this a scared money fold or a sigh call given V has Jx in his range and shouldn't be bluffing against our face up range of AQ, AA, KK only.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:18 PM   #2
RottPhiler
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

If you can't call this, you shouldn't be re-raising AQo and betting 3/4 pot on this flop, and you should be taking more passive lines. As played, this is a snap-call against described villain. The 3/4 pot flop-bet is a nice sizing against this villain and allows you to play for stacks. If V miraculously has a J here, pay the sLAG the money they have earned with their image.

The plan when re-raising AQo against described villain should have been to trivially stack off with TPTK/TPSK on most flops, and still stack off with Ace high on paired flops such as JJ2 for example. If you can't do that, your re-raise accomplishes nothing since V is not going to fold pre-flop, and you're essentially turning your hand into a bluff.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:28 PM   #3
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Call and dont play if you are scared money. There is enough of what you describe as his calling range in his C/r range along with some complete spazz and Jx. Call and ride the variance train or play 1/3 or something
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:29 PM   #4
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Tough spot. I like the flop sizing because this is not a board that you will be betting very often, so when you do want to bet, you can go larger.

I think the only thing you can do here is do the math and count combos (which i'm too lazy to do in full rn). At first glance, we block AJ, QJ which is good. The board also obviously blocks these hands. We unblock KT, T9 etc. Also good. Further, you have a tight passive image. Good.

I'm probably calling off here against the described V but also realize that this is a high variance spot.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:36 PM   #5
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
2/5 1k max, 3-4 AM degen hours.

V - Is young-ish sLAG who just sat around 2:30-3 AM and bought in for max 1k. Opens 40-50 in normal pots, larger for straddles. Has three bet jammed 700 into $30 open and one or two calls. Has not folded to a 3 bet after PFR, is barreling with high frequency but does find some folds when Vs come back over the top. Early in his session Hero doubled through by calling $50 pre with AQo, calling $75 on Q high flop. Jamming over $185 turn bet for $390 total. V insta-called and insta mucked when Hero showed. Also showed down 24o in a raised pot where flop came 345, he led flop large and got called by PFR, A on the turn, he jams about 400 effective, AQ calls and loses.

Hero is MAG and should be viewed as tight / passive / sticky per earlier HH.

OTTH:
About 90 mins or so into Vs session, V ($950 effective) opens to $50 from EP, Hero (covers) raises to $150 from MP with AQ. Folds back to V who calls. Most likely capped due to previous history of 4 bets (AJ-, TT-, a host of other nonsense that sLAGs will defend with against narrow defined ranges from tight players).

Flop ($300): Q J J
V checks, Hero bets $225. I know I'll get some heat on sizing 3/4 but I feel like V is over calling all his Qx, KT, T9, and maybe 99-TT. We are cooked vs Jx, but his range is still wider than it should be here so I didn't see a need to worry about Jx too much yet OTF. Also due to his 4 bets V almost never has AA-KK here.

The fun part is that V may or may not decide that Jx isn't in Hero's 3 bet range from MP and decide to x/r AI. One thing is for sure, V x/r'd all in. Previously V was probably about 25% good when it got to showdown due to his aggression and sizing weeding out all but the strongest hands. This time it's not the standard b/b/b line though. Is this a scared money fold or a sigh call given V has Jx in his range and shouldn't be bluffing against our face up range of AQ, AA, KK only.
This is not a snap call. It's probably A call, but I'm not 100% happy about it. Villain seems hyper aggressive but not completely suicidal.

Think about the bottom parts of villains range that shove here. Do you think he shoves with a naked straight draw against a paired board? While 109 and K10 are likely in his range, the board is also rainbow. Let's include it as a possibility, but unless villain is untinking, which from what you've described I'm not wholly convinced he is, it's less likely for him to have this.

KQ and Q10 are likely candidates to shove given the type of villain, but because of the texture of the flop villain has a WHOLE range of hands that are killing you. For example QJ you're no longer ahead of.

If the board was Q77 or Q88 surely it's a snap call but QJJ is very problematic since it hits so much of villains range. J9 J10, QJ KJ AJ maybe even Jxs if he's that crazy.

I wouldn't blame you for folding or cringe calling here. cooler if you lost.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:57 PM   #6
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

@ post above... We should never flat AQo pf here. V is extremely wide and we have a lot of players left to act behind us. We need to bet this for value & just as importantly, to gain position on Moby Dick & keep other wannabe Ahab's out of our seas. I'd 3b as low as ATo, maybe even all my AXs pending on who's still behind us. Def all suited broadways, KQo+, maybe KJo, and some SCs. This range is value, especially AQo, so we are in no way turning our hand into a bluff by 3b this. We're putting ourselves in a position to get max value.

As played, this seems like a way ahead/way behind situation. KT & 89 are the only combos that are sort of in that middle zone, though they're still ~35%. Anyways, as you already sensed OP, sizing so large isn't optimal. All of his 22-TT doesn't feel comfortable, neither do his A highs, and even his OESDs realize the board is paired. I think I go for a 1/3 c bet or check this flop. Seems like this guy will overbluff and I want to give him the opportunity. As played, I'd call it off vs this guy. Seems like he'd flat his trips at least some of the time, though he has a lot of Jx combos.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:24 PM   #7
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
If you can't call this, you shouldn't be re-raising AQo and betting 3/4 pot on this flop, and you should be taking more passive lines. As played, this is a snap-call against described villain. The 3/4 pot flop-bet is a nice sizing against this villain and allows you to play for stacks. If V miraculously has a J here, pay the sLAG the money they have earned with their image.

The plan when re-raising AQo against described villain should have been to trivially stack off with TPTK/TPSK on most flops, and still stack off with Ace high on paired flops such as JJ2 for example. If you can't do that, your re-raise accomplishes nothing since V is not going to fold pre-flop, and you're essentially turning your hand into a bluff.
This is not a question about my ability to call or fold. It's about making the best decision given the action. I have been on both sides of calling / folding here. I'd like to better understand why you feel this is a snap though. How do you range V exactly? What portion of that range has us beat? Also the check raise vs donk lead distinction doesn't give you any pause at all?

Also, getting heads up in position with a huge range advantage in a $300 pot is accomplishing a lot IMO. Even if we don't stack off every time.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:27 PM   #8
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Check flop or bet something much smaller
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:29 PM   #9
c0rnBr34d
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by FWWM View Post
Call and dont play if you are scared money. There is enough of what you describe as his calling range in his C/r range along with some complete spazz and Jx. Call and ride the variance train or play 1/3 or something
Is it really this much of a slam dunk call? As noted I can both call or fold in this spot which is the reason for the post. You're suggesting it should be 100% call. My standard counter is that nothing in poker is 100%. Also, moving down doesn't really reduce variance IME it just makes the pots relatively smaller. At any rate, thanks for the input.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:31 PM   #10
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by MogFish View Post
Tough spot. I like the flop sizing because this is not a board that you will be betting very often, so when you do want to bet, you can go larger.

I think the only thing you can do here is do the math and count combos (which i'm too lazy to do in full rn). At first glance, we block AJ, QJ which is good. The board also obviously blocks these hands. We unblock KT, T9 etc. Also good. Further, you have a tight passive image. Good.

I'm probably calling off here against the described V but also realize that this is a high variance spot.
Thanks, this mirrors much of what I was thinking.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:33 PM   #11
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
This is not a snap call. It's probably A call, but I'm not 100% happy about it. Villain seems hyper aggressive but not completely suicidal.

Think about the bottom parts of villains range that shove here. Do you think he shoves with a naked straight draw against a paired board? While 109 and K10 are likely in his range, the board is also rainbow. Let's include it as a possibility, but unless villain is untinking, which from what you've described I'm not wholly convinced he is, it's less likely for him to have this.

KQ and Q10 are likely candidates to shove given the type of villain, but because of the texture of the flop villain has a WHOLE range of hands that are killing you. For example QJ you're no longer ahead of.

If the board was Q77 or Q88 surely it's a snap call but QJJ is very problematic since it hits so much of villains range. J9 J10, QJ KJ AJ maybe even Jxs if he's that crazy.

I wouldn't blame you for folding or cringe calling here. cooler if you lost.
+ 1
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:37 PM   #12
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by QuantumSurfer View Post
@ post above... We should never flat AQo pf here. V is extremely wide and we have a lot of players left to act behind us. We need to bet this for value & just as importantly, to gain position on Moby Dick & keep other wannabe Ahab's out of our seas. I'd 3b as low as ATo, maybe even all my AXs pending on who's still behind us. Def all suited broadways, KQo+, maybe KJo, and some SCs. This range is value, especially AQo, so we are in no way turning our hand into a bluff by 3b this. We're putting ourselves in a position to get max value.

As played, this seems like a way ahead/way behind situation. KT & 89 are the only combos that are sort of in that middle zone, though they're still ~35%. Anyways, as you already sensed OP, sizing so large isn't optimal. All of his 22-TT doesn't feel comfortable, neither do his A highs, and even his OESDs realize the board is paired. I think I go for a 1/3 c bet or check this flop. Seems like this guy will overbluff and I want to give him the opportunity. As played, I'd call it off vs this guy. Seems like he'd flat his trips at least some of the time, though he has a lot of Jx combos.
Thanks, still working on sizing. I feel like 1/3 sizing vs this V is more likely to induce though which puts us in a similar spot with the caveat that now V may read our bet as week and be raising lighter. I thought 2/3 - 3/4 would indeed loose some of his A high and small pair value but it was a trade off I was ok with making in real time.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:38 PM   #13
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Check flop or bet something much smaller
1/3? 1/2? Where's the sweet spot? If it checks through and V donks turn I assume we are calling any amount?
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:45 PM   #14
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
This is not a question about my ability to call or fold. It's about making the best decision given the action. I have been on both sides of calling / folding here. I'd like to better understand why you feel this is a snap though. How do you range V exactly? What portion of that range has us beat? Also the check raise vs donk lead distinction doesn't give you any pause at all?

Also, getting heads up in position with a huge range advantage in a $300 pot is accomplishing a lot IMO. Even if we don't stack off every time.
Described villain wants to run the table over (as evidenced by 3-bet jamming 700 into a 30 open with one or two calls which is really what makes this a snap-call, albeit a sample size of one hand), which means jamming air and jamming value, making it very difficult to play against. He wants you to start folding everything, and force you into playing passively by not raising him ever without the nuts, where he can easily fold. A paired flop is the perfect flop to get you to fold big hands as you are crushed if ZOMG he has trips. AA/KK are sitting ducks if he has a J, whereas AA/KK has more equity if he flopped bottom two. Of course, he will have Jx here from time to time, but the board (and the A and Q cards in your hand) blocks several Jx combos. If we begin folding nut two-pairs on this flop (he can't have AA/KK because that's a LAGs wet dream to further crush your soul by 4-betting pre), then we play right into his strategy of forcing you to fold. We have to take a stand at some point.

He's not doing this with ATC though, so his value range consists of Jx,Qx,TT-, highly unlikely but still possible AA/KK. His semi-bluff range consists of all AK, AT, KT, JT etc., which is enough to make this a call.

Question to you: what would you do with AA here? Would you consider folding? If not, then AQ is basically AA here.

Donk leading has lesser fold equity than check-raise jamming.

If he has AA/KK here, then it is weirdly played but also masterfully played considering his image. If he has Jx here, he simply got lucky, which happens from time to time.

Put yourself in described villain's shoes? Can he fold Qx, TT-? If the answer is no, then your decision is a call.

Last edited by RottPhiler; 03-18-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:49 PM   #15
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

I honestly don't think you can choose a sizing here small enough to avoid commitment.

All we get out of it is peeling turn and maybe sometimes folding to a K, since it gives him a bunch more combos that we don't block and beat us in addition to Jx.

For those reasons, we might as well commit right now. I probably would have opted for a crai on the flop just to see if this dude has a fold button at all.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:53 PM   #16
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
I honestly don't think you can choose a sizing here small enough to avoid commitment.

All we get out of it is peeling turn and maybe sometimes folding to a K, since it gives him a bunch more combos that we don't block and beat us in addition to Jx.

For those reasons, we might as well commit right now. I probably would have opted for a crai on the flop just to see if this dude has a fold button at all.
Agree about the commitment issue paradox. If we play it slow or small we induce bluffs and may have the same decision with less info. Outside chance he folds for less or we turn a Q but otherwise we either get raised OTF or bet into OTT and have the same decision on a later street. K would be horrible.

Also, we cant CRAI on the flop as we are in position and V checked to us.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:03 PM   #17
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Described villain wants to run the table over (as evidenced by 3-bet jamming 700 into a 30 open with one or two calls which is really what makes this a snap-call, albeit a sample size of one hand), which means jamming air and jamming value, making it very difficult to play against. He wants you to start folding everything, and force you into playing passively by not raising him ever without the nuts, where he can easily fold. A paired flop is the perfect flop to get you to fold big hands as you are crushed if ZOMG he has trips. AA/KK are sitting ducks if he has a J, whereas AA/KK has more equity if he flopped bottom two. Of course, he will have Jx here from time to time, but the board (and the A and Q cards in your hand) blocks several Jx combos. If we begin folding nut two-pairs on this flop (he can't have AA/KK because that's a LAGs wet dream to further crush your soul by 4-betting pre), then we play right into his strategy of forcing you to fold. We have to take a stand at some point.

He's not doing this with ATC though, so his value range consists of Jx,Qx,TT-, highly unlikely but still possible AA/KK. His semi-bluff range consists of all AK, AT, KT, JT etc., which is enough to make this a call.

Question to you: what would you do with AA here? Would you consider folding? If not, then AQ is basically AA here.

Donk leading has lesser fold equity than check-raise jamming.

If he has AA/KK here, then it is weirdly played but also masterfully played considering his image. If he has Jx here, he simply got lucky, which happens from time to time.

Put yourself in described villain's shoes? Can he fold Qx, TT-? If the answer is no, then your decision is a call.
I think this V 4 bets AK 100% ish as well. I expected more folds and calls than shoves TBH. As someone else mentioned he should have some smooth calls with monsters like Jx or a boat. He's never folding a good Qx. Not sure about TT-, probably raise or fold there. The x/r was a new wrinkle that he hadn't shown before OTF. He also knows I can be sticky since he doubled me up once already. I just thought he would have less x/r bluffs here given history but I'm sure less does not equal zero.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:18 PM   #18
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
As someone else mentioned he should have some smooth calls with monsters like Jx or a boat.
Described villain, in my limited experience, will have exactly zero smooth calls.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:19 PM   #19
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
Is it really this much of a slam dunk call? As noted I can both call or fold in this spot which is the reason for the post. You're suggesting it should be 100% call. My standard counter is that nothing in poker is 100%. Also, moving down doesn't really reduce variance IME it just makes the pots relatively smaller. At any rate, thanks for the input.
I wasn't saying that it was a slam dunk call, just that it was a call given all the info you provided. As for the 100% not sure what you mean there, it's either a call or a fold there is nothing in between. If you think you should call that 80% of the time and fold 20% or something, you are one of many who misunderstood game theory.

And my moving down advice referred specifically to the "scared money" in your title. If you are scared money, you wont make optimal decisions, if you move down you should be less scared money, therefore my advice.
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Old 03-18-2019, 07:50 PM   #20
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Check flop or bet something much smaller
+1

Pretty routine stuff.

And if you're going to bet a pile otf, you can't just bet fold.
I'd probably make it 200 pre against this guy, and just get it in on any good flop 900 eff.

You are in the wrong game to be worried about money. This is one of those spots where if the whale runs hot you all get felted and you need to be prepared to play a defacto 5T-T20 hybrid game with 5-7 BIs at your disposal. If you run even->pure, you'll have your outlier win for the year.

Definitely an in for 6k, 4k in front type game if you're playing it right.

Oh, and if you can't hack the money piece, just immediately hit up your friends and sell 50-75% of yourself.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:10 PM   #21
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Flop sizing is really bad. $100 or check. I like betting $100. He might spaz shove, in which case we are snapping.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:30 PM   #22
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Described villain, in my limited experience, will have exactly zero smooth calls.
Rings true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FWWM View Post
I wasn't saying that it was a slam dunk call, just that it was a call given all the info you provided. As for the 100% not sure what you mean there, it's either a call or a fold there is nothing in between. If you think you should call that 80% of the time and fold 20% or something, you are one of many who misunderstood game theory.

And my moving down advice referred specifically to the "scared money" in your title. If you are scared money, you wont make optimal decisions, if you move down you should be less scared money, therefore my advice.
Ok, took some of it a bit out of context I guess. Makes more sense now.

The scared money bit is a bit tongue in cheek. It's really more MUBSY play with me. I can always afford to lose what's in front of me. It's not that I think I have the best hand and still dont want to call. It's more that "does this x/r define his range differently than a b/b/b/?" and am I still good here the same amount of times. I just want to make the right calls. especially in larger pots.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:35 PM   #23
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
+1

Pretty routine stuff.

And if you're going to bet a pile otf, you can't just bet fold.
I'd probably make it 200 pre against this guy, and just get it in on any good flop 900 eff.

You are in the wrong game to be worried about money. This is one of those spots where if the whale runs hot you all get felted and you need to be prepared to play a defacto 5T-T20 hybrid game with 5-7 BIs at your disposal. If you run even->pure, you'll have your outlier win for the year.

Definitely an in for 6k, 4k in front type game if you're playing it right.

Oh, and if you can't hack the money piece, just immediately hit up your friends and sell 50-75% of yourself.
I don't mind the 200/jam line either. I guess I just don't understand the 1/3 sizing cases yet. Why is 1/3 best here? Specifically to induce? Last time I posted a hand where I used 1/3 it was "wrong".

Again, didn't mind the money really. Just wanted to get a feel for how others are ranging this V and if it's a standard stack off spot or not.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:36 PM   #24
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

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Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush View Post
Flop sizing is really bad. $100 or check. I like betting $100. He might spaz shove, in which case we are snapping.
Bad why? Because we want V to continue wider? We still got the shove...
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:48 PM   #25
BackDoorFlush
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Re: 2/5 Weekly scared money post. Are we calling jam vs sLAG here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
Bad why? Because we want V to continue wider?
Yes, we want him to continue with pocket pairs and to potentially float your 1/3 psb c-bet. It takes a real sicko to float a 75% psb, in a 3! pot.
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