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2/5 valuebetting TPTK 2/5 valuebetting TPTK

07-16-2018 , 01:44 PM
V is likely extremely competent and sitting directly to my right.

Effective stacks 1400. One early limp, V opens 20 from MP (standard sizing for him), Hero has AKo (no heart) 3b 70. Folds to V who calls.

Flop (150): K 2 4

V checks. Hero 75, V thinks and calls.

Turn (300): T

V checks. Hero?
2/5 valuebetting TPTK Quote
07-16-2018 , 01:48 PM
You probably can't go wrong with bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold.

I think you can also make a case for checking back the turn. You might induce some river bluffs from missed hearts. You're also likely to induce river bets from weaker Kx, and you'll still be deep enough to raise/fold for value.
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07-16-2018 , 01:50 PM
Nice 3 Bet sizing pre

flop is fine I would do the same

Turn:
I'm checking to let him bluff the river or to bet when he checks to me
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07-16-2018 , 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingOwl
You probably can't go wrong with bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold.

I think you can also make a case for checking back the turn. You might induce some river bluffs from missed hearts. You're also likely to induce river bets from weaker Kx, and you'll still be deep enough to raise/fold for value.
I'd never bet fold this flop to anyone remotely competent (or really anyone except a supernit).

Turn is close if we get x/r. If I have the Ah I'd probably fold. If I didn't I'd make a decision against the size.

But yeah I'd go small again here. Maybe 120 ballpark. We're trying to keep his KQ/KJs in there. I'd have probably sized down more on the flop, to like 50.
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07-16-2018 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnow88
Nice 3 Bet sizing pre

flop is fine I would do the same

Turn:
I'm checking to let him bluff the river or to bet when he checks to me
The problem is that we rep an incredibly narrow range if we're checking back this high up. Especially since we might even check KK and TT on the flop (for different reasons obv). So we risk playing too polar and letting his bluffcatchers turn a big profit against us.
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07-16-2018 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
I'd never bet fold this flop to anyone remotely competent (or really anyone except a supernit).
Yeah, no arguments there. I admit I was on auto-pilot when I said Bet/foldx3. Didn't really consider the board texture too much.
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07-16-2018 , 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
I'd never bet fold this flop to anyone remotely competent (or really anyone except a supernit).



Turn is close if we get x/r. If I have the Ah I'd probably fold. If I didn't I'd make a decision against the size.



But yeah I'd go small again here. Maybe 120 ballpark. We're trying to keep his KQ/KJs in there. I'd have probably sized down more on the flop, to like 50.

Given the fact that we block Kx, don’t block any flush draws, sets being unlikely and KK being in our range thus making it unlikely that V would x/r us as a bluff OTT, don’t we want to bet/fold turn bigger (atleast half pot) assuming his most likely holding is the NFD?
2/5 valuebetting TPTK Quote
07-16-2018 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
The problem is that we rep an incredibly narrow range if we're checking back this high up. Especially since we might even check KK and TT on the flop (for different reasons obv). So we risk playing too polar and letting his bluffcatchers turn a big profit against us.


Can you explain this in layman terms?
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07-16-2018 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk
Given the fact that we block Kx, don’t block any flush draws, sets being unlikely and KK being in our range thus making it unlikely that V would x/r us as a bluff OTT, don’t we want to bet/fold turn bigger (atleast half pot) assuming his most likely holding is the NFD?

I mean if that's what we want to assume then sure. AQhh/AJhh/AThh is 3 combos though. Is he calling a three bet with A9hh? Methink no.

From there, KQ alone is 8 combos. That doesn't count like JJ that may call again against a small size.

Plus, the times we ourselves have AQhh/AhJ and want to triple off on this turn card, we probably want to do it three streets. We'd rather not be in a situation where we get to the river and our betting range is sets and air.


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2/5 valuebetting TPTK Quote
07-16-2018 , 02:22 PM
Against a competent V, I think I bet 170-200 here. We have position so we can chack back river if you get a tell.

His range will be TT-QQ,22-44 (if he raise/call pre with those), KQ, Flush draws
Our range = JJ+, AK, A3s, Ah4h-Ah5h, AhTh, AhJh, AhQh, KQs
2/5 valuebetting TPTK Quote
07-16-2018 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk
Can you explain this in layman terms?

Sure.

Say I hold a pure bluffcatcher on this board. Like black queens.

If our opponent is betting a range of:

KK/TT/AA/AQhh/AhJ

Then black queens has 26.2% equity and should continue against half pot.

But now let's add AK to the above. Now, black queens has 17.2% and cannot call a bet profitably against that range.

And of course we can add more bluffs to our range if we want. Like any old AJ.

Essentially we make $ when our villain makes mistakes against our range. If he can't figure out our frequencies, he's going to make more mistakes. Also, people generally don't value bet often enough in these spots, and a strong opponent will adjust and call more often with bluffcatchers.


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07-16-2018 , 02:26 PM
Also of note here guys is that we are in position. So villain isn't going to be getting the IO that he would if we were OOP. So we don't have to bet to charge his draws nearly as much, and can bet to target his bluffcatchers.
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07-16-2018 , 02:56 PM
$125.
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07-16-2018 , 03:15 PM
I would bet $150 and check back the river if called.
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07-16-2018 , 06:50 PM
Continue barreling. Not really a spot to be checking here tptk ott
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07-17-2018 , 12:36 PM
What are we aiming for value from by betting the turn? And how does that range to react on a blank river if the turn checks through?

Last edited by whorasaurus; 07-17-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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07-17-2018 , 02:43 PM
KJs+/QJs/FD/Ah4h.

Not enough on V image to comment on a turn check through. Perhaps, he bets his TP on the river?
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07-17-2018 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
Continue barreling. Not really a spot to be checking here tptk ott
+1. Textbook b/f spot on this board. I would go $175-$225 depending on what I know about V and how lightly he calls two flush boards with one pair.
2/5 valuebetting TPTK Quote
07-17-2018 , 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Sure.

Say I hold a pure bluffcatcher on this board. Like black queens.

If our opponent is betting a range of:

KK/TT/AA/AQhh/AhJ

Then black queens has 26.2% equity and should continue against half pot.

But now let's add AK to the above. Now, black queens has 17.2% and cannot call a bet profitably against that range.

And of course we can add more bluffs to our range if we want. Like any old AJ.

Essentially we make $ when our villain makes mistakes against our range. If he can't figure out our frequencies, he's going to make more mistakes. Also, people generally don't value bet often enough in these spots, and a strong opponent will adjust and call more often with bluffcatchers.


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Black QQ is actually a fold against the first betting range because of RIO. IP is underbluffing there since he is polarized and can have more hands that become give-ups on the river. Equity vs. pot odds is not enough to determine whether to call there. QQ is only a call if IP is bluffing more frequently than that or is known to almost always give up his bluffs on the river (or almost always barrel them)

Most bluff-catchers are easy folds at these stakes. Even good players vs. other good players do not bluff enough. I'm surprised you would say that the good players bluff-catch a lot.
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